What are the three principles of mind, consciousness, and thought?
In March 2019, I spoke with Harry Derbitsky, who teaches the three principles uncovered by Sydney Banks and wrote The Evolution of Addiction Recovery. I had been reading his book, and much of it matched my own thinking at the time.
Harry describes his work as a spiritual psychology. In his view, the answer to substance use is not found outside a person but uncovered inside them, because the health is already there.
This is an archive episode, recorded when the show covered addiction and recovery broadly. The views Harry shares here are his own, and I have kept them in his words.
Why did the traditional recovery model stop evolving?
At 1:35, I said that many programs in the United States modeled themselves on the 12-step approach of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Narcotics Anonymous (NA), and that this model seemed to be breaking down in the middle of the opioid epidemic. Harry agreed that the results are inconsistent and that the approach had not evolved with the times.
From 2:27, he explained the difference as he sees it. The three principles are a health model, while AA works from a disease model. In his view, the belief that a person can never leave addiction behind and become fully healthy is a myth that heads people in the wrong direction. Still, he credited the meetings with one real strength, which is fellowship.
At 4:28, I raised survivorship bias. When you walk into a meeting and hear people describe decades of sobriety, the program looks very successful. Yet you never hear from the many people who came, left, and did not succeed.
Is health something we find or something we uncover?
From 5:18, Harry explained why he prefers the word healing, a word he took from his work with Indigenous communities. He believes everyone has a healing component inside, so health is not discovered but uncovered.
He gave an example from a classroom where he volunteers once a week. Some children had been labeled as difficult, and he noticed how quickly a label starts to become who a child is. In his view, the labels around substance use work the same way.
Where does stress come from, according to the three principles?
At 9:00, I described my own work at the time. Many of my patients were struggling with opioids, and for us the safest immediate step was medication such as buprenorphine or naltrexone. I asked Harry whether the programs he works with use medication, and he said they are completely free of it.
From 9:57, he laid out his central idea. Stress comes from our own thinking, and people naturally look for relief from that stress. So, a person who finds relief in a drug comes to link the two. In his view, the goal is not only to stop using but to become happier, because a better feeling from within is where people naturally head.
Can a person control their thoughts?
Harry was clear on this at 13:47. In his experience, the first question people ask is how to gain control of their thoughts. His answer is that you cannot, because thoughts will always keep coming. Interestingly, he saw mindfulness as heading in the right direction, but still as using thought to analyze thought.
What a person can do, he said at 18:42, is understand the role of thought. He compared it to a hammer. If you keep hitting your finger, the problem is not the hammer but how you are using it.
At 19:03, I mentioned the writer Michael Singer, who describes observing the voice in your head instead of fighting it. Harry agreed completely. He described letting the busy little mind run while paying it less attention.
What happens in the first days after someone stops using?
At 21:14, I asked about the person who is just trying to get clean, with cravings, family pressure, and sometimes legal trouble all at once. In Harry’s experience, after three to seven days people regain a balance and are in a very different state of mind.
However, he said, many then return to the same old thinking. He compared it to people leaving a sweat lodge ceremony looking years younger, then talking about the same old problems and losing that feeling within minutes. In his view, thought and feeling are connected, so a thought recreates the feeling.
How can someone stop beating themselves up?
At 25:37, Harry said the first thing he tells people is to lighten up. He sees low moods as weather. When it rains, you bring out an umbrella, and if you do not add more thinking to the mood, it passes on its own.
He also admitted that for years he was gentle with everyone except himself. The day he decided to treat himself the way he treated the people he worked with, he said, things stopped being so hard. At 28:55, I agreed that it is good advice for anyone. When people stop using, they often start beating themselves up over the past, and that can pull them back toward the drug.
Does one approach work for everyone?
At 34:54, I asked whether journaling helps. Harry said it depends on the person. If writing brings a good feeling, follow it, and if it only leads to more overanalyzing, stop. Walking in nature works the same way, he said at 36:19, but only if the mind is quiet enough to notice where you are.
At 38:48, I said that medication is not the end goal, but it gives people time, space, and breathing room to make other changes. Harry agreed at 40:22 that medication can help people calm down enough to find their balance again.
Why does open-mindedness matter in recovery?
At 43:47, I pointed out that the principles behind the first step include honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness. Unfortunately, some groups reject medication even for temporary use. In my view, that is a lack of the very open-mindedness the steps describe.
Harry answered at 44:38 that you cannot change an organization when people depend on its structure. He told the story of a peaceful man who had not had a drink in 29 years but still saw himself as diseased, and who became upset at the suggestion that he might not be. So, Harry let it go, and they went on talking.
Who is Harry Derbitsky?
Harry Derbitsky is the president of ACT Training and the author of The Evolution of Addiction Recovery. He teaches the three principles of Sydney Banks and, with a co-host, runs a regular webinar series on substance use and the three principles. He lives near Vancouver, British Columbia.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Harry’s message is that people are healthier than their labels suggest, and that much of their suffering comes from thinking they cannot control but can learn to see differently. Kindness toward yourself is not a luxury. It may be part of what keeps a person well.
How do I approach this today?
My thinking has kept developing since this conversation was recorded. Today my practice is built on one idea that runs through all of it: when the body has adapted to a substance, the safest way off is usually gradual, with the smallest steps the person’s nervous system can tolerate. Physical dependence is not addiction.
For opioid dependence I prescribe buprenorphine, which steadies the body so a person can rebuild their life without the cycle of withdrawal. Visits are monthly, or weekly when needed. Some people stay on it for a long time, and that is a legitimate choice. Others later taper slowly, using the same gradual approach I use for every other medication.
I prescribe in Florida only.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (59 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:09] Welcome to The Rehab on the Mental Health News Radio Network. I am Dr. Mark Leeds and I will be your host. Join me in exploring the world of addiction treatment. How can we improve the ways that we help individuals to overcome addiction? The goal of treatment is to save lives and help people to get back on track to a path towards success and happiness in life. Harry Derbitsky, welcome to the Rehab Podcast. Thank you for joining me. And how are you today?
Harry Derbitsky [00:51] I’m doing really well, thank you. Although I’m on the West Coast of Canada, So it’s three hours earlier. I live in a smallish town outside of Vancouver, right on the ocean.
Dr. Mark Leeds [01:10] Okay. And I’ve watched shows. I think a lot of TV shows take place in Vancouver, and it looks like a beautiful place.
Harry Derbitsky [01:18] It is. It is. It’s voted, Mark, in many surveys, the best city in the world to live in. And it’s a very very beautiful city perhaps the only city I’ve seen that’s more beautiful is san francisco
Dr. Mark Leeds [01:35] Oh yeah and that’s a great place too we were just there last july and that’s beautiful also I was just reading I’ve been reading your your new book the evolution of addiction recovery and it’s really started to enlighten me because it you know it is very similar to a lot of things I’ve been thinking about and talking about, about the changes and, you know, what we’re learning about how to deal with recovery and the mistakes that are being made and continued, you know, from, you know, the AA and NA are the traditional models of treating addiction and alcoholism. And they’ve been around for a long time and the treatment centers around the United States and maybe around the world. I know in our country, they modeled themselves on that 12-step model, and it seems to be breaking down. It’s not really working in the midst of this current opioid epidemic.
Harry Derbitsky [02:27] Well, I totally agree with you. They have very inconsistent results, and we could talk a few reasons why that is, but there’s no doubt that it hasn’t evolved with the times. And in the beginning, AA in 1935, when Bill W. Had his spiritual experience, it had quite positive results. But over the times, the spiritual message of AA has diminished, and the 12 steps have sort of taken over as the approach. And one of the things that perhaps as a doctor you might like, what I teach is called the three principles uncovered by Sydney Banks, and it’s a health model. And AA is a disease model. And the idea that we cannot leave alcoholism or addiction or the opiate – I call it the opiate and addiction crisis because it’s more than the opiate. But that we can’t leave that and become totally healthy is a – unfortunately, it’s a myth. And that heads people in the wrong way. And also AA has lost the AA meetings I have gone to. The strength of it is the fellowship. People need other people to be there when they have troubles. And AA does provide a good fellowship, but it has very low results.
Dr. Mark Leeds [04:28] Yeah, and the way I see it, that there’s a, I believe they call it the, I’m trying to think of the name for it, the survivorship bias. Survivorship bias meaning that when you walk into a room of AA and you see so many successful people and you hear a lot of people raising their hand and saying it works for me, the program works, people are sober for decades, and it looks like a really successful program, but there’s not any real studies or statistics of the success, or maybe there are, but the results don’t seem to be as good as what you would believe going into a meeting room. And survivorship bias being that the success stories you’re hearing, you’re not hearing about the many times more failures. Maybe 99% of the people that come in stay and walk out and don’t succeed, but you don’t see them
Harry Derbitsky [05:18] That’s correct and in my experience in recovery centers and rehab centers the very very very low results and it’s frustrating for the people because they’re giving it everything they have but they’re not getting they’re not getting the understanding that they need to live a normal, happy life. And that’s a bit of a shame. So I see AA has to evolve and grow. And there’s people like yourself and myself, which may either do one of two things, which is either help it to evolve or simply offer a different program. And, for instance, you’re in Florida, aren’t you, Mark? Well, there’s a center. It’s called Gulf Breeze Recovery Center. And it’s primarily a three principles recovery center and they’re claiming a 79 percent recovery rate which is which is more what we’re looking for we’re looking for a high level of success and when because what’s the point where if people aren’t recovering and healing which is a word I use a lot, healing, because I have been involved also with the indigenous or American Native Indians. And so they use the word healing. And that’s the word I use in terms of what I’m looking for. No matter what we have from the past, no matter what it is, there is a, inside ourselves there’s a healing component that allows us to resurface healthy again but I don’t call it the reason I call it resurf resurfacing mark is because you don’t discover this health you uncover it’s already there and that’s a very important concept because Because if you’re talking to a healthy person who just has some misguided thoughts that have led them to believe that this addiction is something that is coming outside of them, then you’re just talking to a normal person. And it’s the same way with any other label if you go into a school I help my daughter mark once a week in her school she’s the principal has allowed me to come in and help her in her classroom and the first thing I noticed was that some of the kids are labeled not so good and I look at these kids and I go who are they talking about but all the teachers have this agreement this label And the kids start to feel that. And I come in and just talk normally to the kids. And there’s nothing wrong with them. It’s just the label starts to become who they are. And addiction has quite a bit of that, where people are looking at answers through willpower. Or I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. But of course, we know, Mark, that doesn’t work.
Dr. Mark Leeds [09:00] So now in my experience, in the work that I do, patients come to the office. Often they’re struggling with opioid addiction. They may be coming off of heroin, fentanyl, pain pills. And for us, the best and safest way to treat them immediately is to put them on a medication. You know, we use buprenorphine, you know, which is the ingredient in suboxone, and it’s believed to have a 50% success rate. Naltrexone is an opioid blocker, also believed to have a 50% success rate. Methadone, which I don’t provide, but people can go to a methadone clinic if suboxone won’t work, has a 75% success rate. And you were talking about the Three Principles program having almost about that same success rate, 74%, 75%. And are these programs using these kind of medications or are they completely free of medication?
Harry Derbitsky [09:57] Completely free of medications. And that’s what you and I want to take a look at is how we can use our expertises because together you’re dealing with a drug, helping someone with a drug problem. And what I teach is a spiritual psychology that allows people to experience the happiness and contentment within themselves. When they see how that works, they don’t just get off the drug. Their whole life changes. And that’s what we want. We don’t want people to just stop using the addiction. They have to get happier as well because the cause, the initial cause of addiction was the stress that they were experiencing in their life. And so they naturally – we’re built to naturally look for relief of stress. And so a person who heads in the drug direction, they naturally identify the relief of the stress with the drug. But in reality, it comes deeper than that. It was the stress itself which is caused from our thinking. So I have a sort of a simple little statement. All problems including addiction is caused by overthinking and this overthinking creates the stress that we have in our life and then we naturally want to have relief from it and then as we more identify the relief with the drug then we become addicted to that behavior and when I’m in a low mood mark I head to the fridge and now it’s it all it does is lead to a bigger tummy but it’s it or a stomach ache but it’s just you know and then I say oh well I’m doing it again you know I’m repeating repeating the process so happiness and contentment is the object of the three principles and when people have a better feeling than the drug they experience that within themselves that’s where they head just like you do almost like when you’re on vacation you naturally stop to forget your your problems and so on you just head into another reality like when you visited san francisco […] you notice there were different moments that created stressful scenarios. But generally speaking, you were having a pretty good time.
Dr. Mark Leeds [13:01] Yeah, and I find that generally I have a lot less stress since not working for somebody else. Since I’ve had my own practice and I’m able to set the time that we start working and the number of patients I’m going to see per day, that’s taken a huge amount of stress off of me. And I see that in the lives of a lot of my patients, that if they were to make big changes in their lives, that I believe they would have a lot less stress. And now when you talk about changing your thinking, it sounds a little bit like meditation and mindfulness of being aware of your thoughts and not obsessing or following those negative thoughts. But would you also coach or recommend to somebody that they make changes in their lives to drop those things that are propagating the stress?
Harry Derbitsky [13:47] Well that’s just common sense what happens mark is you doctor we you doctor yourself so when you have an experience within yourself see mindfulness is heading in the right direction but it’s still you analyzing your thoughts with thought you want to go before that to where you know where in a religious concept you’d say soul but in a psychological sense you would call it innate health you want to go to the innate health within yourself and when you experience that you then your common sense just clicks in at a higher level so you naturally see what you need to change yourself. The problem with changing lifestyles is you changed your lifestyle because you saw that it was creating stress for you, but you also saw that you had a feeling of freedom, a feeling of independence, and that was more conducive to a quality of life that you wanted to lead. So your own common sense headed you in the right direction. We call that wisdom. Your own wisdom headed you in the right direction. So we change our lives as we see there’s things that need to be changed. But we don’t change them out of order. Like what’s right for Mark is not right for Harry. And so Harry will change different things than Mark will change. And so although I totally agree with you, a better lifestyle, you know, is, you know, as an example of the world, which is consumed with materialism and money, everybody knows if you have a little bit more money it leads to a freedom of paying your bills and is less stressful in your life yet there are very few happy rich people in the world and they have it all but they just still have their thoughts and if you if your thoughts are causing you to feel worry stress fear and insecurity then you yourself will will uncover how to how to help yourself with that so yes a good lifestyle is better and certainly being not on drugs is better than being on drugs but the essence is that you’re a thinker and you’re doing the thinking mark You can’t, nobody else is doing that thinking for you. And so when you see that these feelings that you have, let’s call them stressful feelings, are not coming from outside circumstances or past experiences. They’re coming from the fact that you’re thinking in the moment and you’re thinking in this moment is negative. And so your negative thought leads to stressful thinking. The moment you see that with the three principles, you automatically just move away from it because you see, oh, you use the word meditation. You move towards a meditative state of mind not the technique of meditation but to a meditative state of mind a deeper level of consciousness where the little mind is quieter it and here’s something the first question that I have out what are the questions that people ask when they’re addicted. And you probably get it. And the first question is, how do I gain control of my thoughts? That’s everybody I have ever met wants to know the answer to that question. And the second one, which is a subset of that, is how do I deal with all these negative outside experiences that the world is throwing at me? When I go to emergency, they treat me like terrible, and et cetera, etc and the key to that is you can’t control your thoughts you just can’t they’re just going to be coming so if they’re always happening mark they’re a major factor to the feelings and the state of mind you’re experiencing in fact I would say they’re the key factor
Dr. Mark Leeds [18:34] Okay so a person cannot control their thoughts
Harry Derbitsky [18:42] No okay no they can’t and they can understand the role of thought the nature of thought like a tool if you have if you have a hammer and you keep hitting your finger while you’re while you’re hitting the nail you’re not using the hammer the right way
Dr. Mark Leeds [18:55] Okay
Harry Derbitsky [18:59] And it’s a tool that’s all just a tool.
Dr. Mark Leeds [19:03] Now, it reminds me a little of the writings of Michael Singer, and he talks about being aware of that voice in your head, and being aware of also that a person is not that voice, like I am not the voice talking in my head all the time. And you can observe that voice and not, and I think earlier in his career, in his writings, he talked about trying to suppress it. And then later on, I heard him speak a couple of years ago, and he said he doesn’t try too hard anymore to suppress the voice. He just observes it. Is that part of the three principles?
Harry Derbitsky [19:41] A hundred percent. You nailed it on the head. A hundred percent, Mark. That’s exactly – like, so I have these thoughts running in my head. And then in a way I have also a spiritual thought that connects me to the oneness of life and so that’s how I’m defining mind universal mind so you’re going to you’re going to that peace inside of yourself and yet the little mind is still running around but you’re just not taking it seriously and you’re not giving it a lot of emphasis so my mind my little mind is still running around but I just simply head towards a quieter feeling a feeling of silence so that I can be clear you know you know yourself when you’re when your mind is all muddled up It’s hard to make decisions. Yet when you’re clear, it’s easy. And so things that used to take me two weeks to make a decision take me two minutes now because I’m not paying attention to all of this mental diarrhea that’s happening in my head. So what you alluded to, I 100% agree with.
Dr. Mark Leeds [21:14] Okay and now when a person is first coming into recovery they’re first trying to get clean there’s a lot of negative thinking and cravings obsessions with drugs and add on top of that family and co-workers and maybe law enforcement all these people coming down on the person creating more stress and all they want to do is escape and you know and they have these routines and habits and I would think that getting into that state of being able to observe your thinking and you know and not acting on all these thoughts that takes some discipline and some training and some help what would then
Harry Derbitsky [21:56] Not not discipline understanding okay the discipline the self-discipline like discipline from your inner of course is a peaceful easy flowing way discipline from the little mind is willpower and that doesn’t work that’s the intellect and you don’t want to be caught up in your intellect and so what you’re saying is 100 correct and that’s why the first detox which that doesn’t take us that long before people start to clean up is such an important aspect with addiction and so when I worked for several years at a recovery center where vancouver has a huge homeless problem and a huge opiate and drug problem, people living on, lots of people living on the streets. And when they get tired, they put themselves in this recovery center. And so they take themselves off the street. Well, the first couple of days is true that they are what I call rat shit. You know, they’re really, you know, they look terrible. They have no, they can’t pay attention. Too much but after three three to seven days that they’re they’ve they’ve regained a balance and equilibrium and they’re then in a totally different state of mind and but the problem being that if like the beauty of what you’re doing is you’re you’re giving them relief from their addiction on opiates, but they still have the same, they still don’t see that the answer comes from a deeper understanding of thought. So they naturally reignite all the old thinking let me give you an example of it a native indian example you go into ceremony in the sweat lodge for example and they no matter what your problems most people experience a higher level of spirit now or you we would use the word higher level of consciousness but they would use a higher level of spirit and they get the healing that they want and they come out of the sweat lodge and they look 20 years younger but the problem is that they start talking about the same old things the same old problems that they had when they went in to the sweat lodge and the moment they do that they reignite the feelings see there’s a relationship from thought to feelings they’re really one and the same thing so a thought creates a feeling and so they if you have a neck you start doing those negative thoughts you reignite and it’s within five to ten minutes they’re back down in a lower mood does that make sense
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:25] It makes sense but so what can a person do to maintain that higher spiritual level and or at least to bring themselves back to it when they do start falling down back into that negative state
Harry Derbitsky [25:37] The first thing I tell people we usually at a recovery center is lighten up you’re too heavy you know I know it sounds strange but whoa it’s so serious and so hey stop taking everything so serious and no So for me, there’s two basic roots that lead to the same way. For me, I see life as spiritual. So everything is perfectly designed. So anything that I’m experiencing is perfect for me right now. And if I have that feeling of gratitude or that feeling that everything, I feel safe and secure within that, I then just experience the lower moods for what they are, their weather. You know, when it rains, you bring out your umbrella, you know, and then you walk and then you notice after a while the rain disappears. So by doing nothing, which is a deep level of silence within yourself, what happens is you don’t keep the low mood alive. For our thinking keeps that low negative mood alive and actually adds energy to it and so thought and energy is energy in the moment and it keeps it alive so as you have this understanding you naturally head in the right direction or you don’t disturb yourself so in my case when I before I had a deeper understanding of the principles I was very very kind and gentle with my clients with everybody but extra tough on myself I had very high standards and I was very disappointed it this disappointment that I was experiencing in myself perpetuated me to have long periods of heaviness and I couldn’t understand until one day I said oh why don’t I treat myself like I treat my friends or my clients and the moment I was gentle with myself guess what it wasn’t so hard
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:18] Okay
Harry Derbitsky [28:21] You can’t keep beating yourself up and you can’t analyze yourself the intellect which is a the brain is a biological computer and it and it’s perfect but if we see it basically what you feed into it is what it spits out and you’re experiencing that you know So one of the things your drug does is it calms the brain down or numbs the brain down, one of the two, and that allows people to naturally regain an equilibrium.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:55] Okay. And I would say that’s good advice for anyone. In any situation, don’t beat yourself up because nothing good seems to come from that. Now, you’re right. When people stop using drugs, they do tend to start beating themselves up. They think about the things they’ve done and now they don’t have the drug covering up those feelings anymore and you know they feel bad about it and that could even lead them back to the to the drug maybe
Harry Derbitsky [29:22] Guaranteed no no not maybe guaranteed you know in most cases you know it and you don’t want them you know you’re you’re you found something that provides a relief for the for the people which is phenomenal I mean you’re part of the evolution of the healing of the human being but until they get a deeper level of understanding of how the mind works then they’re always going to be unhappy and blaming outside circumstances or past circumstances for how they’re feeling in the moment. And from what you’ve read, Mark, and Mr. Singer that you mentioned, they’re talking about something deeper. He’s seen something deeper than worrying and talking about your old, old past problems. Here’s one of the little tip. The past was true then, but you can only bring it into the present via thought. You have to go in, pick that thought up, and pull it into the present, and then re-experience it, because thought is going to create a feeling. So if you can see the connection of thought to feeling what will happen is you’ll start to see oh my thinking there must be something wrong with my thinking and then you just naturally your common sense kicks in and you naturally head in a different direction or you experience your negative thinking it takes you in exactly the same place that you were before you experienced before and before and before and you go oh it’s a it’s it was poop before and now I went back into the poop and it smells the same and it tastes the same maybe I won’t do it next time and then you’re starting to see that you yourself have been taking yourself in the wrong direction or hitting yourself on the head. And that’s all that addiction is yourself. You’re misusing the tool of thought. You’re misusing it. And like God or higher power or whatever spirit or whatever word you want to use, The psychological word, Mark, is mind, universal mind. So universal mind is a psychological word for God. And so universal mind is always that we are that, and we just have to recognize it. We have to experience the truth and not the myth. And that’s what AA has. When Bill W. Had his deep, deep spiritual experience, the reason it was successful is because people were having spiritual insights. And they went inside themselves and they said, oh, there’s something neater, cooler, more wonderful about who I am. I thought I was supposed to look at what a lousy person I was and all my faults. No, you look at your beauty. How do you feel when you see your own beauty, Mark?
Dr. Mark Leeds [33:11] Oh, great. And I can definitely beat myself up over a lot of things. But, you know, I have had times where I kind of look at myself and say, you know, maybe there’s really nothing wrong with me at all. You know, maybe I’m fine the way I am and everything is great. And I’m just obsessing over all these negative things that aren’t even real.
Harry Derbitsky [33:31] That’s wisdom. There it is. That’s the three principles. In your own words, that’s what they – you just expressed it. You, like every other ordinary human being, has a beauty within yourself. And from time to time, you take thought, you head in the wrong direction, and then you self-correct. And you say, hmm, maybe I should have a little more gratitude or maybe things aren’t so bad. And as soon as you get a little feeling of relief, the mood changes and you go, oh, I wonder why I was so upset. That’s how we operate psychologically. That’s why I call it a spiritual psychology because within yourself, we operate a certain way, but the answer always heads go back and to see the beauty within yourself
Dr. Mark Leeds [34:54] Now would you agree that writing would help with that it seems like journaling and writing out what you’re thinking and feeling and kind of looking back at your writing does does is that part of the process of doing a lot of writing
Harry Derbitsky [35:06] Well the reason I call you it’s physician heal thyself is because if it does that you like for some people they take a walk in nature and they and they all of a sudden nature mother earth mother nature starts to heal them and they feel oh that’s if writing creates the right feeling that’s what you follow If writing just creates more stressful situations for yourself because you’re overanalyzing yourself, then don’t do it. You let your feelings guide you. So in your answer to your question, Mark, in my opinion, for some people, writing will be very good. And for other people, it won’t. It will be the opposite.
Dr. Mark Leeds [36:03] Okay. So it’s individual. Different people will benefit from different things and I and I agree you know being out in nature you know quiet fresh air nature walking you know those are definitely positive things definitely for me and I would think for a lot of people
Harry Derbitsky [36:19] For everybody for yeah but if your mind is too busy and yet when you’re walking in nature and all you’re thinking about is your problems you’re not even in nature one of the images I experienced recently I visited my family in another city is that one of the relatives she doesn’t live in a home although she talks about she does she lives in her head and so if you take your head that’s why you can see the quieting down of the little thinking the little thought is necessary to experience the power of nature all everybody gets healed walking in nature if you can quiet the little mind out now buddha said the same thing it’s just that I’m teaching a buddha mind or a christ mind or a universal spiritual mind they’re all the same thing by the way because that’s that’s how my teacher uncovered was expressed this spiritual reality that we live in so I say it’s a spiritual world it’s a world of thought you find a balance between those two statements you found the answer to your psychological health to being happy and content within life and you know yourself sometimes you have everything but you don’t see the happiness and contentment that is an illusion created from your little mind and who’s the thinker Mark you are I mean that’s just common sense and so people when people get have a spiritual insight towards that’s why bill w call it higher power when you have a spiritual insight to that you see it for yourself it means nothing mark to anybody until they see it for themselves and they see who they really are and why do you feel good helping people, Mark?
Dr. Mark Leeds [38:48] It’s probably the best feeling ever just to see someone come in a week or two later and be a completely different person. People improve with our treatment so dramatically that within the first month, you know, I often don’t even recognize them when they come back. There’s been such dramatic changes in their appearance and their personality and in their life. And I know that medication is not the end goal but it does give them a chance to give them some time and space and breathing room to really think about these kind of things and you know get to a point where they can make other changes in their life you know therapy is an important thing and you know what you’re talking about you know as far as this awareness and gratitude and seeing themselves as not broken it’s definitely important but when a person isn’t you know, in the middle of the withdrawal, the physical withdrawal from opioids, that can be a difficult thing to focus on. But yeah, it is very rewarding to see, you know, someone that you’ve helped. And then in some cases, there’s people that I’ve helped that are people who help a lot of other people. And that’s extra rewarding. I mean, there’s a couple of people that have come into my practice that are either educators or healers themselves. And they help an unbelievably a large number of people and who knows who those people have helped. And just to know, like by helping one person, I may have helped thousands of people who otherwise wouldn’t have been helped. It is very rewarding.
Harry Derbitsky [40:22] Very rewarding. And that’s, you see the spiritual nature of that? That’s that feeling. We all have that. Everybody who helps somebody else in your case being a doctor you’re using drugs in the right way which you know if people have a mental health problem say they want to commit suicide well I’m not a big advocate of using drugs a lot in the psychological world but there’s no denying that when people have lost their way, the drugs can help them to quiet, to calm down, so that they can live with themselves, you know, in the psychological model that we have in today’s world. And here you have a psychological, physical healing, of allowing the people to experience a balance within themselves or a feeling of normality or a feeling of something. And they naturally resurface, and some of them, that’s all they need. They do the rest themselves. And others they need to have a more structured way or which is why AA sometimes works for those people and or they need to have a deeper understanding because they’re looking for answers to how come I’m doing this and what how can I help other people and that sharing is like have you noticed Mark this is one thing that I love about my work if you want to grow you have to share it’s that’s the rule that’s God’s rule you want to grow you have to share You have to share positive feelings. You have to share love. You have to share ways of helping people that you’re there for. You have found a way to help people. Isn’t that beautiful?
Dr. Mark Leeds [42:45] Yeah, definitely. I think there’s a saying in NA, maybe it’s from AA, but it’s you can’t keep what you have unless you give it away.
Harry Derbitsky [42:53] There you go. My teacher would say the same thing. See, there’s truth, wisdom all over the place, Mark. You can hear it, eh? AA is not a totally useless organization. It has taken people a certain step. But in 1935, Bill W. Had a strong spiritual experience. And over the years, the spiritual message of AA has gotten weaker. And the system, the 12 steps, has gotten stronger. That’s why they have lower results. They’ve lost the essence of the feeling of innate health. You have it inside yourself.
Dr. Mark Leeds [43:47] And there are spiritual principles behind the steps. And there could be a different way of doing things. The first step has the principles honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness. And I sometimes say that even the programs are not following these spiritual principles of being open-minded and willing. You know, that there’s new things that have come along that work to help people with addiction. And for example, in the NA, they’re against the use of these medications for even temporary use. They say that we treat addiction with abstinence. And that’s a lack of open-mindedness that maybe there are new developments in the field and new things that can help people and so I think we all have to be open-minded and willing to look at things that things have evolved and changed and that there are new ways of doing things
Harry Derbitsky [44:38] Absolutely but the blessing is you have opened up you see we can’t actually change other people and you sure have we have noticed that you can’t change an organization if a person is over religious about their organization because that means they need it that structure and that support if you if the bubble burst they have nothing to hold on to so they need you to support their world and what you’re coming along to say no I’ve jumped the boundaries of time which is my definition of evolution, jumping the boundaries of time. I’ve jumped the boundaries of time, and I have something that, in conjunction to what you’re doing, will help people, a certain amount of people. And they’re caught up in their protocol, in their rules and regulations and so anything outside of that blows their mind I’ll give you an example of it I met this unbelievably beautiful guy he’s he retired and he created acres of free flowers and stuff it’s called the secret garden he’s the most peaceful beautiful person And he mentioned to me that he’s an ex-alcoholic and that he’s still diseased, even though he hasn’t used any alcohol for the last 29 years. Anything within the confines of what he understands, he has pure peace and contentment and is a beautiful, beautiful person. But when I suggested to him that he was that 29 years, he’s not diseased, that he couldn’t handle. So he fought against it, became very rattled and discomfort, uncomfortable. So naturally, I pulled away from that because I’m not there to be religious or my way is better than your way type of approach. And he and then we had a nice conversation. So it is true that truth, your level of what you’re coming in is a higher, better level, and it disturbs the little mind. That’s one of the things my teacher, Sydney Banks, that truth disturbs the little mind. And you can see that it does. You gave me a perfect example.
Dr. Mark Leeds [47:25] Now, what about for the person, for example, the person who is sober for 29 years and they accept the concept that they’re not diseased? Would you agree that also they should not take a drink, even a small drink, at any time in their life going forward?
Harry Derbitsky [47:42] Well, that’s a very good question. And the answer depends on the person. So in the three principles, we have people in the situation. I run a webinar series twice a month, which has over 600,000 minutes viewed. It’s called Addiction, Alcoholism, and the Three Principles. And most of the people are from the three-principle world, not all of them, but most are. And we’ve been running this program for about two and a half years. It’s very successful with doctors. And the reason I myself have never been addicted, so I’m not a subject matter expert. So my co-host is from Ohio, which is the beauty of the Internet, and he was a heavy alcoholic who had a huge spiritual experience. And he in one second he immediately lost all his desire where alcohol had no control over him and he experienced a deep level of happiness and contentment within himself now that’s a very deep and quick solution to a to a problem so for him once in a while he can have a beer or two or whatever, and it doesn’t bother him. His common sense kicks in and he says, well, I don’t want. He doesn’t even want any more. But for another lady who I’m thinking of, she’s an ex-judge and all this. She has experienced the three principles and been in AA as well, and she feels she cannot have a drink with it creating. So once again, it’s individual, Mark. The truth is I used to drink a lot because you went to university I went to university did you drink a lot?
Dr. Mark Leeds [49:52] Yeah and at some point it just occurred to me I’d rather not feel sick the next day so I just gave it up and I do very little drinking these days
Harry Derbitsky [50:00] Yeah see you experienced a higher level of consciousness so I basically don’t drink but of course in today’s world a lot of people drink and you go so and if I say I’m playing a sport or something I’m I so I like to taste the beer but after about a half a glass I can’t drink anymore my body shuts down it doesn’t want anymore and I go oh okay so I don’t I never finish the glass it’s as you as your level of consciousness or your level of wisdom or your understanding grows things just fall away mark your desire as you mentioned your common sense kicked in and said I don’t need this and that’s you know and you’re and then it no longer you didn’t need a drink to have a party or have a good time that’s that’s the evolution of yourself everybody experiences that so at a certain level the drinking provides a relief or the opiates provide a relief of pain and suffering and then at another level of consciousness it’s useless it has none of those effects okay you’re happier if you’re mark when our natural reset is happiness and contentment that’s that’s our reset that’s when we don’t worry what are you when you don’t worry what are you
Dr. Mark Leeds [51:40] Oh if I if I don’t worry I’m just here I’m Just relax, calm.
Harry Derbitsky [51:50] That’s your reset. Just like a baby, right? Yeah. So that’s the answer. Get happier. But the psychological connection of thought has to be understood because if you don’t understand the role of thought, spiritual thought, you don’t understand how we operate, how we function. Bill W. Had a spiritual experience, and he phoned up Carl Jung. At that stage, there were three major psychological approaches, Freud, Adler, and Carl Jung. And Carl Jung was the most spiritual of the three. And Carl Jung told Bill W he said from my experience psychotherapy doesn’t work that’s my experience three things he says works people have a religious experience you know like Bill W had because he was a Christian or someone has an experience a spiritual experience without religion like Sydney Banks had or you get a deeper understanding of what mind is. That’s the three principles, a deeper understanding of what mind is. And the more your understanding comes in, the more you see, the easier life becomes psychologically. So Christ had the three principles of religion, and Sydney Banks uncovered the three principles of psychology. And they’re three spiritual principles. And the more we experience ourselves as beautiful spiritual beings, the quieter our little mind goes. You cannot have a spiritual experience with a busy, busy, busy, busy little mind. In fact, the spiritual experience is defined as, oh, no thought. For a second, the little mind stopped, the intellect quieted down, ego was non-existent, and you saw something relevant to your life. Now that obviously would be useful because if you have a spiritual experience mark of seeing something with clarity and I tell you’re wrong you say well that’s okay harry you can tell me that but I know it’s true and that’s why that’s why truth will set you free because it’s a fact it’s not a it’s not a belief or something that a spiritual entity within yourself is who you are and that freedom provides you to pay less attention to your little mind and more attention to the universal thought that creates everything in our universe and walking in nature is a creative process. Helping people is a creative process. And appreciating your own life is a creative process. Basically, you felt disconnected to the spiritual nature of life. That disconnect created stress or uncomfortableness, but really fear. You got afraid, and that’s what addiction is. It’s a thought that you are afraid of. And who is the thinker? I am. And do I do it, even though I’m telling you how it works? Absolutely, because I’m just an ordinary human being with flaws and garbage and lots of nonsense and so on. And yet the answer lies in beauty in yourself.
Dr. Mark Leeds [56:08] Harry Derbitsky, author of Evolution of Addiction Recovery, which is available on Amazon. I highly recommend the book. Thank you for joining me. And also, can you also quickly tell us, how can people find you online to hear your webinars and see your webinars?
Harry Derbitsky [56:25] Well, go to my website. I’m president of ACT Training. So go to ACTTraining.biz, B-I-Z, instead of com. So ACTTraining.biz, and you’ll see the webinars, how you can get on the webinars, which I highly recommend. And can I also mention, Mark, I created with my co-host Greg Sookie from Ohio, a recovery coach, a Golden Moments course, seven episodes, which is a free resource. And it has the wisdom of many guests and people who are on the show. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful resource. It’s been used in a lot of recovery centers. And people who are looking for a deeper understanding of mind and its relationship to thought, this would be very, very helpful. And so acttraining.biz will have all the information that you want. And my last name is D-E-R-B-I-T-S-K-Y, and that will, I guess, help you as well. So thank you, Mark. It’s been quite a bit of fun. I wouldn’t mind having another talk sometime with you have a really beautiful way of looking at life.
Dr. Mark Leeds [57:58] Thank you. Yeah, I definitely would like to do this again soon, so thank you.
Harry Derbitsky [58:02] Yeah, good, good, Mark. I think, you know, you can feel we’re both helping in our own way. You have your gift. I have my gift. And the beauty is they have their gift. And you mentioned that domino effect. Isn’t it interesting? When a person jumps out of addiction, they sometimes jump into a higher level of consciousness than I’m in. And then they teach me. Isn’t that a beautiful, beautiful circle?
Dr. Mark Leeds [58:34] Thank you for joining us today on The Rehab on the Mental Health News Radio Network. I hope that you have found this show to be interesting and useful. If so please subscribe to the rehab podcast and share on social media I appreciate your taking the time to listen to the rehab
