What can a martial art teach about recovery?
In March 2024, I spoke with Eric Fisher, who has worked in mental health and addiction services for more than 13 years, about his first book, The Martial Art of Recovery: How to Subdue Addiction and Achieve Mental Wellness. He was finishing it when we spoke and planned to publish it that May.
Eric grew up in Tennessee and has lived in Calgary, Canada, since 2014. We talked about how a martial art carries over to recovery, the substances he sees most, and the difference between dependence and addiction. Shame came up too.
How did a karate student come to write about recovery?
At 0:48, Eric explained that the book began more than two years before our conversation. He wanted concepts that were down to earth and practical, something people in recovery could actually use instead of jargon. So, he went back to his own training in Wado-ryu karate as a boy and American Kenpo karate as a teenager.
In his telling, it simply clicked. The concepts he had learned began to line up with his clinical work, and with what martial arts teach about living beyond self-defense.
Is a martial art about more than fighting?
At 2:13, I suggested that martial arts are not only about defending yourself on the street, and that there is a spiritual element to them, just as there is to recovery. Eric agreed. At 2:41, he described the freedom of movement he felt in training, even while he was learning proper form and technique.
In his view, spirituality offers the same kind of freedom, the ability to be who he would like to be with himself, with others, and with the community. That overlap sits at the heart of the book.
Why does movement matter?
At 3:21, I mentioned movement therapy, a dance-like form of nonverbal communication that needs no skill at dancing. I wondered whether a more formal kind of movement, like a martial art, could connect people with their feelings in the same way.
Eric thinks the movement piece is huge. At 3:54, he said he was working on a certification in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), where movement is discussed as part of a non-medication approach. He also recalled an inpatient setting where high-intensity exercise and yoga helped the people who took part.
What does Eric see in his work?
At 4:30, Eric said he works mainly in outpatient private practice, with some contract work for a local nonprofit. At 4:59, he named alcohol, cocaine, and cannabis as the three substances he sees most in Canada. When he worked in Mississippi, it was more often opioids, methamphetamine, and alcohol.
From 6:32, I raised how complicated things become when someone uses cocaine or amphetamine together with opioids or alcohol. Eric’s answer, at 7:51, was to look at high-risk activities and boundaries, including who the person buys from, and to find a mutual support group that suits the person.
Interestingly, he described his approach as biopsychosocial and spiritual. He wants to look at the cocaine, and also at what lies underneath it.
What makes recovery from cocaine use so hard?
At 9:28, I asked whether he had seen people stay away from cocaine or amphetamine for a long time. Eric said relapse is common with both.
At 9:50, he pointed to what he called hedonic rehabilitation, or pleasure rehab. In his view, the post-acute withdrawal that can follow cocaine use can be quite debilitating, so recovery is not just stopping and going on your merry way. It means finding activities that bring pleasure back.
How has legal cannabis changed the conversation?
At 11:59, Eric remembered the day Canada legalized cannabis. In his view, the intent and the motivation behind the use are important.
He also described a problem from an intensive outpatient program. Cannabis can stay in the body for weeks, so a drug screen did not show when it was last used. Unfortunately, staff could only hope people were being truthful.
Is dependence the same as addiction?
At 16:52, I laid out a distinction I return to often. Cocaine and amphetamine are seen as highly addictive, yet a person can stop them without becoming physically sick. Alcohol carries physical dependence, and a sudden stop without medical care can bring on a seizure. Opioids carry physical dependence too.
Benzodiazepines, and many other psychiatric medications such as Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft, also cause physical dependence, and stopping them suddenly can bring on a withdrawal syndrome. In fact, with benzodiazepines a sudden stop can cause a seizure. Still, as I said on air, benzodiazepines are probably not very addictive, even though they can be misused. Physical dependence is not addiction.
At 18:57, Eric described a person he works with whose Xanax use goes along with cocaine use. Nobody, he said, wakes up wanting a problem with any substance.
What role does shame play?
At 21:51, I said that some triggers are hard to talk about in a room full of strangers. Eric agreed, at 22:08, that there is so much shame in addiction, and a lot of shame and guilt coming into recovery. His hope is that the book helps people meet that shame and process it.
At 22:45, I said that addiction is hard to define, yet something common seems to run underneath it. Eric’s answer, at 24:00, was shame and disconnection, and beneath them, pain. He hopes the book will help family members too.
Who is Eric Fisher?
Eric Fisher lives in Calgary, Canada, and has more than 13 years in mental health and addiction services. He worked inpatient and outpatient in Mississippi and now runs his own private practice, Recovery Arts Counseling. The Martial Art of Recovery: How to Subdue Addiction and Achieve Mental Wellness is his first book.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
In Eric’s framework, recovery is more than stopping a substance. It means finding new sources of pleasure, setting boundaries, and meeting the shame and the pain underneath. So, the martial art in his title is more than a metaphor, since movement, form, and freedom each have a place in it.
How do I approach this today?
My thinking has kept developing since this conversation was recorded. Today my practice is built on one idea that runs through all of it: when the body has adapted to a substance, the safest way off is usually gradual, with the smallest steps the person’s nervous system can tolerate.
Physical dependence is not addiction. A person who took a medication exactly as prescribed and now cannot stop it safely needs a plan, not a label. Where a medication can make the process gentler, I use it. Patients direct their own care, and a good plan includes the risks, the alternatives, an exit plan from day one, and the right to change course.
For benzodiazepines and sleep medications such as zolpidem, I follow the Ashton Manual, written by Professor C. Heather Ashton, and the Maudsley Deprescribing Guidelines. That often means a crossover to diazepam, whose long action smooths out the day, and then small reductions with holds whenever symptoms flare.
When tablets can no longer be cut small enough (I never split a tablet beyond quarters), the taper moves to a liquid so the steps stay gentle. A diazepam taper can continue on the liquid down to about 0.1 mg. A taper is not treatment for addiction. It is careful medicine for a body that has adapted.
Call 911 or go to an emergency department if there is a seizure, confusion or hallucinations, or thoughts of self-harm. For thoughts of suicide or any mental health crisis, you can also call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (27 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:00] Eric Fisher, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I’m really excited to hear about your book. It’s called The Martial Arts of Recovery. Is that correct?
Eric Fisher [00:13] Yeah, The Martial Art of Recovery, How to Subdue Addiction and Achieve Mental Wellness.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:20] Just the idea of it, the whole concept is very intriguing. And as soon as I hear things about martial arts and the idea of martial arts and recovery, I just I don’t know why I imagined Bruce Lee and you know in that movie I think it was Enter or Exit the Dragon the one where he’s like training someone in the beginning and telling him to focus on his finger or something like that it was I just you know all kinds of imagery comes up you know I mean so yeah tell us a little bit more about the book and how it came about
Eric Fisher [00:48] Sure yeah yeah I love Enter the Dragon Bruce Lee is so quick yeah so the book came about started around well over two years ago now and I’ve been in the field of mental health and addiction services for over 13 years now and I was just wondering you know how could I apply some concepts that were down earth that were practical that could serve those in recovery in a way that made sense on a practical level like not just jargon level not technical level but something that people could use and I thought back to my martial arts training I’ve done Wado-ryu karate when I was younger 10 to 12 years old and American Kenpo karate martial art when I was 16 to 18 and I went back to that time and just the way that there are concepts that can be practically applied to mental health and addiction recovery and it just clicked for me And I started to go back to the different techniques I learned and different concepts with American Kenpo in particular. And then I started to see some connections with the concepts when it came to treatment for addiction. Also, when it came to the martial arts and what martial arts teaches with different ways of living, really, outside of just self-defense.
Dr. Mark Leeds [02:13] And isn’t that’s isn’t that correct that martial arts is not all about fighting or defending yourself out in the streets you know against attackers I mean there is in fact there is a spiritual element I think to it you know you know […] and yeah and yeah so there’s definitely a spiritual component to it and there’s also a spiritual component of course to recovery oh
Eric Fisher [02:41] Yeah absolutely yeah for both of them absolutely yeah absolutely yeah by all means I feel like when I was able to do the martial arts there was a lot of freedom and movement and there wasn’t like a feeling I needed to like center myself with how I was moving of course we learned proper form and technique and the same can be said with spirituality generally that there is that freedom there is that ability to just be who I would like to be in the context of relationship with myself others and the community at large and so yeah there’s a lot of overlap indeed yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:21] There’s also in there’s some some rehab facilities utilize movement therapy which I think is like a dance type therapy and you don’t a person doesn’t have to be good at dance or experienced. It’s just a way of non-verbal communication with yourself and with others and getting in touch with feelings and just by movement. And so I can imagine that a more formalized kind of movement and just martial arts could also be a way of connecting that same way.
Eric Fisher [03:54] Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do believe that the movement piece is huge. And I’m even doing a certification on ADHD right now. And they talk about the importance of movement when it comes to a non-medication treatment approach. And yeah, so I do feel that, yeah, it’s huge. Like I worked in an inpatient treatment facility and they did high intensity exercise and yoga. And it was, it was very beneficial for the people that did those type exercises.
Dr. Mark Leeds [04:27] Do you currently work in the addiction treatment industry right now?
Eric Fisher [04:30] I do. I’m working more so right now on an outpatient basis in my private practice. And I also do some contract work with some other clinics and also a nonprofit organization in the local area that helps a lot of folks that have addiction concerns.
Dr. Mark Leeds [04:51] What kinds of addictions do you encounter and what kind of addictions do you work with mostly
Eric Fisher [04:59] Right now it’s mainly alcohol and cocaine cannabis those seem to be the three at least up here when I was working in the states when I worked in mississippi it seemed to be opiates methamphetamine and alcohol as well heroin like those type of concerns so yeah those are those are the three main ones I would say there’s quite a few of the three main ones
Dr. Mark Leeds [05:25] So you did live in mississippi are you from mississippi you’re in canada now so are you where are you from originally
Eric Fisher [05:33] Yeah so I am originally from tennessee well born in arkansas raised in tennessee since I was six years old and I did my professional work in mississippi outpatient and inpatient at a drug treatment facility in Mississippi, Corinth, Mississippi. And I’ve been up here in Canada since August of 2014. So coming up on 10 years. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [05:53] Oh, are you like a Canadian citizen or not?
Eric Fisher [05:57] Not quite. I’m a permanent resident. So I get the green card equivalent. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [06:02] Oh, is that something that if somebody anybody can do if they decide they want to make the move and decide they want to live in Canada?
Eric Fisher [06:10] Yeah, I believe so, especially if they have a sponsorship with a family or a spouse. Like my wife is from Canada, from Calgary. So that’s the reason I surrendered up here. And that’s the reason I was able to get the fiancé visa and then eventually getting a permanent residency. So yeah, I think that it’s possible.
Dr. Mark Leeds [06:32] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sorry, a side topic, but interesting, definitely. You know, always interesting to think about, you know, North America and just all of America is more than just the United States. You know, so. But yeah, so as far as those substances you mentioned, they’re definitely. You know, not well, you know, of course, here we think of opioids first. You know, that’s the big news is the opiate epidemic, which is a major issue. And people do say sometimes that we forget about the other substances and maybe even non-substance addictions because opioids have taken the center stage. But cocaine and amphetamine addiction is really difficult, especially when it’s combined with opioids or alcohol. Especially when we try to treat someone for an opioid addiction and they also are using a stimulant. And then, you know, it just gets really difficult because now, you know, they might, are they going to take their suboxone or meth, I guess methadone, they take it in front of, you know, the clinic, but it doesn’t always necessarily help with the stimulant addiction. It just becomes a very complicated thing. So, yeah, how do you deal with that differently, like cocaine addiction or cocaine use?
Eric Fisher [07:51] Yeah with cocaine use of course yeah it being a stimulant so we’re looking at high risk activities often being something to look at anything can trigger anything can trigger that addiction response in the brain as far as seeking out escape or order relief so when it comes to yeah say cocaine a lot of the folks I’ve worked with cocaine use yeah very much wanting to do those type of activities so looking at boundaries around those just like with other substances that could be on the street looking at you know who are their dealers is there some different tactics we need to do to look at boundaries around that can we look at cocaine and all you know can we look at these different support groups that can be there whether it’s na or ca or if they don’t mind I’m going to AA, but it would be nice to have a more specific support group or LifeRing or SMART Recovery or Recovery Dharma that’s up here. And so I do believe that we’re looking at it from a biopsychosocial spiritual angle with cocaine use, even if it’s some other substance. And so I’m trying to, I want to be able to definitely look at the cocaine, but I want to look at what’s underneath that cocaine use as well, especially spiritually. Because they’re getting this stimulant and it’s definitely interfering with that ability to find that humanity, the freedom, the ability to choose. It’s a disease of choice, really. So I want to look at the holistic approach with cocaine use or any substance.
Dr. Mark Leeds [09:28] Have you seen a lot of people have success in overcoming that addiction? And I know overcoming might not be the right word because I think that probably that kind of addiction is with a person for life to some extent. But have you seen a lot of people successfully get into recovery and stay cocaine or amphetamine free for a long time?
Eric Fisher [09:50] Yeah, those are two that are very high with relapse rates. I have seen people get into recovery from those more so on an inpatient basis I haven’t worked with a lot of folks on like a private outpatient basis with cocaine use but from the time that I was in inpatient work yeah I’ve seen people I think one of the biggest pieces with cocaine use is that hedonic rehabilitation like pleasure rehab really as far as finding those different activities that give that dopamine because that post-acute withdrawal syndrome with cocaine use can be quite debilitating and so finding different ways it’s not just like stopping the cocaine use and then go on your merry way as far as a very you know thin cookie cut a treatment plan it’s finding those different activities they can start to bring into their life again
Dr. Mark Leeds [10:48] Yeah yeah there’s probably a lot of triggers in life you know crossover and things that bring back those thoughts and feelings to a person. Although the spirituality seems to be that safe space, you know, like where addiction can’t cross over into it. So I guess when people focus on things that are spiritually related, then, you know, that’s kind of a safe zone. Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good. And you also mentioned cannabis and that must be a difficult thing now because, you know, cannabis is now, it’s legal in a lot of places, and it’s a lot of promotion as far as people promoting it as being completely safe. No one gets killed by it. It treats so many different kinds of illnesses and mental health conditions. And at the same time, there’s almost certainly people that abuse it, misuse it, and are probably even addicted to it. And, you know, it might be hard. You know, it’s much easier to get. And not as many people supporting, saying, well, it is a possible addiction. How has that been an issue?
Eric Fisher [11:59] I can remember the day here in Canada when they legalized cannabis across the board. It was a very interesting day just to wake up and realize, yeah, it’s now legal. There were stores popping up. There still is. I think there’s four cannabis stores in my suburb where I live. And so, like you mentioned, Dr. Leeds, I do believe that the intent behind the usage is important, the motivation behind the usage. And like you said, Mark, like what’s this used, what’s this used for, you know, like what’s the usage amount. And it made it really difficult when I was doing an intensive outpatient program and we were drug testing people and, you know, it can reside in the fat cells for an extended period of time after use depending on age gender frequency of use and sometimes doing those drug screenings we would want to know like you just hope that they’re being truthful like how long ago was it that was last used because it could have been two three weeks ago it was last used and it’s still in the body so it’s a very it’s a very it’s a lot more complicated because not necessarily a physiological addictive component more psychological so that can also be challenging to work with and yeah so it’s very multifaceted with cannabis
Dr. Mark Leeds [13:29] Yeah yeah I can imagine it might be difficult for someone to even decide or come to the conclusion or realize that they’re even addicted, you know, that there’s that fine line, you know, like, like with alcohol, there’s a, what they call a gray area drinker, you know, person who is not, does not definitely have alcoholism or alcohol addiction, but they may occasionally binge, binge drink and alcohol is definitely having a detrimental effect on their life, but at such a low level that they are either in denial of it or, you know, just, I would think cannabis is very similar to that a person could use a little bit here and there. And it might be really difficult to say, is it really hurting them or is it not hurting them? But how much better could their life be if they just cut it off completely? And maybe it would be a lot better. So kind of that gray area between addiction and non-addiction.
Eric Fisher [14:22] Yeah, indeed. And that gray area can be very thin or very thick, depending on the person’s history with that substance there is that progression as far as with alcohol or any substance no use maybe social experimental use starting to misuse and then dependency slash addiction we hope that people are able to awareness can be definitely impacted but we you know there’s usually people that have come to me in my life and say hey you know don’t you feel like you’re drinking a little bit too much or don’t you think you’re smoking a little bit too much it’s like okay
Dr. Mark Leeds [15:05] Is cannabis completely legal like do they keep track of how much people are using or like can you just go buy it and nobody cares what your name is or who you are
Eric Fisher [15:20] Yeah I mean as long as someone is I can’t remember if it’s 18 or 21 yeah but I could go into a store this morning and show my id and purchase the substance that’s just like like buying alcohol in a liquor store yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [15:39] Pretty much so I think here I think in you know the laws will vary from one state to another, but I think in places where they’ve made recreational use legal, that they may still track how much a person is using per month and have a registry.
Eric Fisher [15:56] I’m not sure about that, Mark, as far as how they do track it or record how much someone is purchasing. I’m not sure about that. I do know that the people that own the store, even people that work at the store, have to go through a specialized training tour. To work there. I’m not sure about that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [16:17] Well, yeah, definitely like in the age of fentanyl, that’s the most important thing is to make sure that what people are being sold is safe and regulated and that they’re getting what they think they’re getting.
Eric Fisher [16:29] Yeah, for sure. I used to work in a drugstore in Tennessee when I was a teenager. We started to have to put Sudafed behind the store shelves and people had to sign off. And I remember one person coming in and wanting five boxes and I said you’re gonna have to sign for this and he just walked away you know
Dr. Mark Leeds [16:46] Like oh yeah okay
Eric Fisher [16:48] Well we knew that was probably going to be used for meth or something like that
Dr. Mark Leeds [16:52] Yeah yeah that was like yeah before before they did that I mean there was a time when they were selling you know huge quantities of like ephedrine just not even pseudophed but just plain ephedrine in special like tablets that had no additives to them Clearly, they were meant to be just crushed up and used in that way. But yeah, that’s a whole other thing. What do you think of as far as the difference of dependence and addiction? Dependence being, you know, there’s drugs that people say are very highly addictive, but maybe don’t have a physical dependence component so much, like cocaine and amphetamine, you know, a person can stop taking them and not get physically sick or be in danger physically, where alcohol is addicting and has a physical dependence, you know, where you can actually, you can die, have a seizure if you don’t get medical treatment when you detox. Opioids are similar, you know, maybe not as deadly of a detox, but there’s definitely a physical dependence to overcome. And then the interesting thing is the benzodiazepines and I think a lot of other psych drugs also have a physical dependence where if you stop taking them suddenly, you’ll get physically sick, maybe even in serious danger like the benzos. If you quit them suddenly, you can have a seizure. Even things like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, all the psych drugs, if someone quits them suddenly, they could have a withdrawal syndrome. But the interesting thing is that the benzodiazepines are in an interesting class where they’re probably not very addictive, but a lot of people see them as addictive because they do have abuse potential. Perse can definitely abuse Xanax, abuse Valium, but they don’t seem to be addictive in the same way that a lot of the other drugs are. And it’s just it’s a what do you think of the events that what have you seen with benzodiazepines is addictive or non-addictive or people having issues with them
Eric Fisher [18:57] I work with a person right now who has addiction involving xanax and that xanax often goes along with cocaine use I do see that there has been some dependence potential I don’t believe people go out of their way nobody wakes up one day and says I want to be having addiction to any type of substance or process behavior gambling sex pornography whatever so I do feel like there is a concern it can be characterized as alcohol and a pill with yeah and Xanax those type of that type of drug class yeah I do I do get the sense it can be a concern yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [19:38] Yeah yeah I think And definitely in combination with cocaine. I mean, that’s, Xanax is something I’ve heard that cocaine dealers either give out or sell Xanax so the person can come down from their cocaine high. So those two would go together, just like alcohol and cocaine would go together. Actually, cocaine and alcohol, I think they create a whole new drug in the brain. Like cocaethylene, I think is what it is. And it has a whole different effect than either drug individually. Yeah I wrote a blog post a while ago about cocaethylene it was like an interesting topic to research but you know more dangerous substance than either drug individually of course but and that you know when someone I think also when someone has an addiction to say alcohol and cocaine you know that might be like a treatment you know where you can approach treatment like let’s see if we can like I remember there’s a guy that came into our office with that and I didn’t have much to help him with a cocaine addiction but I said let’s focus on the alcohol because he said he only uses cocaine when he drinks like well if we can stop you from drinking maybe that’ll solve both problems
Eric Fisher [20:47] Absolutely that’s a really good example of getting to the root a looking specifically at this substance to help with this other one I do feel it’s the same with this person I’m working with where first it’s the Xanax to get just taking the edge and then it’s a stimulant use and then xanax probably again but I have worked with people where it’s the alcohol and then it’s a process behavior like sex addiction or sexual behaviors and if they didn’t do that substance they would not act out maybe sexually a certain way like methamphetamine and then sexually which really from what I’ve read true addiction involving sex doesn’t necessarily mean that I first take a substance and then as behaviors it can be separate by itself with like sexual addiction yeah anyway that’s just another manifestation of which you mentioned as far as you know the alcohol and cocaine
Dr. Mark Leeds [21:51] Yeah yeah that probably makes that element of recovery difficult because it’s not something that’s easy for people to talk about especially in like a meeting of you know strangers you know like in a 12-step meeting and then to talk about like what their triggers are and they’re probably some that are pretty embarrassing yeah
Eric Fisher [22:08] Yeah there’s so much shame and there’s so much shame and addiction and there’s a lot of shame and guilt coming into recovery and I was my hope is with what I’m publishing in may of this year that it helps to work on that shame to be able to meet that shame and to be able to process that shame and know that this is part of the process and that I can it shows that I care about myself because I do feel the shame you know what I’ve done anyway yeah and
Dr. Mark Leeds [22:45] So that when you say publishing in may that’s this book that we’re that we’ve been talking about the martial art of recovery. So this would be an excellent book for a family member or a person or a loved one, you know, relating to like a person going through an addiction. It could be sex addiction, could be cocaine or methamphetamine or any substance addiction, maybe even gambling addiction. You know, I mean, certainly these addictions all have common, you know, something in common as far as like a person is driven to meet a need for, you know, I guess addiction is a hard thing to define in the first place. I think in the 12-step recovery, they define it as like, well, you know, you know you’re an addict, so you know what it is. And then, you know, the medical community, psychiatrists will say like, well, that’s not even a medical term. That’s more of a layperson term. And other parts of the medical community will say like, well, we’ve come up with a really complicated addiction or definition of addiction of it you know the five c’s of addiction or whatever and but I but I think like they’re trying to like bring it all together and say that there is something that’s addiction and maybe it’s a little different with each substance or activity but there’s a commonality you know that underlying all of it
Eric Fisher [24:00] And I feel that would be shame and disconnection the commonality pain really emotional spiritual mental pain and my hope is with the book that yes, it can be, Mark, as you mentioned, like across the board, whatever substance, whatever process behavior that’s debilitating for someone that they can they can use that material and also family members to learn more about addiction as well and what to look out for, what to support, you know, boundaries, etc.
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:34] So that’s coming up soon in May. So can people preorder your book?
Eric Fisher [24:39] Not yet but yeah my hope is that it’ll be soon available to pre-order in the next few weeks yeah I just have to figure out how to do that because it’s my first book so I have to figure out how to set up the pre-order
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:50] Yeah okay and where’s where’s like the primary place or the best place to order the book
Eric Fisher [24:58] More than likely it’s going to be on amazon primarily and then we’ll look at either IngramSpark or another aggregate site like Draft2Digital which we’ll put it on multiple platforms so I would say amazon yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:11] Yeah definitely want to get the pre-order thing going because when you set up your categories and pre-orders a lot of books quickly become bestsellers just in pre-order even before they go out go for sale so in fact one of our recent guests Dr. Lloyd Sederer who’s a psychiatrist and has worked for years in the addiction field his new book unexpectedly he didn’t even think it was gonna It just, it went, became a bestseller just in pre-order. And, you know, we were really excited about that. And yeah, it’s always great to say you have a bestselling book. And I think your book is really fascinating. It’s a unique approach. It’s a unique perspective on addiction. And it’s something that, you know, there’s a lot of stuff out there that’s just more of the same. And this is not more of the same. This is something new and interesting and different. And I think it could really help a lot of people. So, yeah, people should where can people find you and maybe keep in touch? Do you have like a website where people can look you up?
Eric Fisher [26:14] Sure. RecoveryArtsCounseling.com. And that’s counseling with two L’s and some in Canada. They can also find me at RecoveryArtsCounseling on Instagram. Just typing that in or Facebook RecoveryArtsCounseling, LinkedIn, the same RecoveryArtsCounseling. Recovery arts counseling, or they can just hit me a message on my professional account, Eric Fisher, and Calgary.
Dr. Mark Leeds [26:39] Yeah, of course, we’ll have the website link in the show notes. So people who are listening to this on any podcast platform will be able to see it easily there. So, okay, Eric Fisher, thank you again for joining me. And I can’t wait for the book to come out in May, The Martial Art of Recovery. So thank you.
