Harnessing the Power of Martial Arts in Addiction Recovery: A Unique Insight from Dr. Mark Leeds and Eric Fisher
In a recent thought-provoking episode of The Rehab, host Dr. Mark Leeds, D.O., explores the unconventional yet fascinating intersection of martial arts and addiction recovery with his guest, Eric Fisher. The discussion centered around Eric Fisher’s upcoming book, “The Martial Art of Recovery,” which explores the practical application of martial arts principles to aid those on their journey to mental wellness and recovery from addiction.
The Inspiration Behind the Book
The conversation kicked off with Eric expressing his intrigue for the concept of blending martial arts with smart recovery strategies. Eric shared the genesis of his book, rooted in his over 13 years of experience in mental health and addiction services. Drawing from his own background in martial arts, he discovered the potent parallels between martial arts discipline and the path to recovery, aiming to present down-to-earth, practical concepts to support individuals battling addiction.
Martial Arts: Beyond Physical Defense
Both Dr. Leeds and Fisher discussed the multifaceted nature of martial arts, emphasizing its spiritual and philosophical dimensions that transcend mere physical defense. They explored how the discipline, focus, and mindfulness inherent in martial arts training can foster a profound sense of balance, strength, and personal growth—essential components in overcoming addiction.
Read more: Adam Bisaga, MD: Overcoming Opioid Addiction
Addressing Addiction’s Complexities
The conversation then navigated the challenging landscape of addiction treatment, touching on various substances including alcohol, cocaine, and cannabis. Dr. Leeds highlighted the importance of understanding the unique challenges presented by each substance, from the high relapse rates associated with stimulants like cocaine to the nuanced issues surrounding the legalization and societal perception of cannabis. He stressed the significance of adopting a holistic approach, considering the biopsychosocial and spiritual aspects of addiction.
Dependence vs. Addiction: A Nuanced Understanding
A particularly enlightening part of the discussion revolved around distinguishing between dependence and addiction, especially in the context of substances like benzodiazepines and the broader spectrum of psychological and physiological impacts. Dr. Leeds underscored the complexity of addiction, advocating for personalized, comprehensive treatment strategies that address the underlying emotional and spiritual pain.
A Beacon of Hope and Understanding
As the interview concluded, Dr. Leeds shared details about the upcoming release of “The Martial Art of Recovery.” With its innovative approach, the book promises to be a valuable resource not only for individuals directly grappling with addiction but also for family members and professionals seeking to understand and support loved ones through their recovery journey.
Listeners were encouraged to keep an eye out for the book’s pre-order availability and to connect with Dr. Leeds through his website and social media for more insights into the intertwining paths of martial arts and addiction recovery.
This episode of The Rehab offers a fresh perspective on addiction recovery, emphasizing the transformative power of integrating martial arts principles into the healing process. Dr. Mark Leeds and Eric Fisher’s conversation serves as a testament to the potential for finding balance, strength, and hope in the face of addiction’s challenges.
Transcript
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:00:10]:
Eric Fisher, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Dr. Leeds. Thanks for having me this morning.
Eric Fisher [00:00:16]:
Thank you. I’m I’m really excited to hear about your book. It it’s called The Martial Arts of Recovery. Is that is that correct?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:00:23]:
Yeah. The Martial Art of Recovery, how to subdue addiction and achieve mental wellness.
Eric Fisher [00:00:30]:
Yeah. It’s just the idea of it. The whole concept is very intriguing. And, you know, as soon as I hear things about martial arts and the idea of martial arts and recovery, I just I don’t know why. I imagined Bruce Lee in, you know, in that that movie, I think it was enter or exit the dragon, the one where he’s, like, training someone in the beginning and telling them to focus on on his finger or something like that. It just, you know, all kinds of imagery comes up. You know what I mean? So, yeah, tell us a little bit more about the book and how how it came about.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:00:59]:
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I love Enter the Dragon. Recently, it’s so quick. Yeah. So the book came about started around, well, over 2 years ago now, and I’ve been in the field of mental health and addiction services for over 13 years now. And I was just wondering, you know, how could I apply some concepts that were down to earth, that were practical, that could serve those in recovery in a way that that that made sense on a practical level.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:01:29]:
I’m like, may not just jargon level, not technical level, but something that people could use. And I thought back to my martial arts training. I’ve done waddle rue karate when I was younger, 10 to 12 years old, and American Kenpo Karate martial art when I was 16 to 18. And I went back to that time and just the way that there are concepts that can be practically applied to mental health and addiction recovery, and it just clicked for me. And I started to go back to the different techniques I learned and different concepts with American Campo in particular, And then I started to see some connections with the concepts when it came to treatment for addiction, also when it came to the martial arts and what martial arts teaches with different ways of living, really, outside of just self defense.
Eric Fisher [00:02:22]:
Uh-huh. And and isn’t that that’s isn’t that correct that martial arts is not all about fighting or defending yourself out in the streets, you know, against attackers? I mean, there there is, in fact, there is a, a spiritual element, I think, to it. You know? You know, I remember taking my kids to karate, and they would, you know, bow or not pray, really, but I guess bow when they enter the dojo. And yeah. And yeah. So there’s definitely a spiritual component to it, and there’s also a spiritual component, of course, to recovery.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:02:50]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. For both of them. Abs yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. By all means, I feel like when I was able to do the martial arts, there was a lot of freedom in movement, and there wasn’t, like, a a feeling I needed to, like, center myself with how I was moving.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:03:09]:
Of course, we learned proper form and technique. And the same can be said with spirituality generally that there is that freedom. There is that ability to just be who I would like to be in the context of relationship with myself, others, and the community at large. And so, yeah, there’s a lot of overlap indeed. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:03:31]:
There there’s also in, there’s some some rehab facilities utilize, movement therapy, which I think is like a a dance type therapy. And you don’t a person doesn’t have to be good at dance or experience. It’s just a a way of non verbally nonverbal communication with yourself and with others and getting in touch with feelings and just by by movement. And so I I can imagine that, a more formalized kind of movement and and just martial arts could, could also be a way of connecting that that same way.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:04:03]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I do believe that the movement piece is huge. And I’m even doing a certification on ADHD right now, and they talk about the importance of movement when it comes to a non medication treatment approach. And yeah, so I I do feel that yeah. It’s huge. Like, I worked in an inpatient treatment facility, and they did high intensity exercise and yoga, and it was it was very beneficial for the people that did those type of exercises.
Eric Fisher [00:04:37]:
Do you do you currently work in in the addiction treatment industry right now?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:04:41]:
I do. I’m I’m working more so right now on an outpatient basis in my private practice, and I also do some contract work with some other clinics and also a nonprofit organization in the local area that helps a lot of folks that have addiction concerns. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:05:01]:
What what kinds of addictions do you encounter? And what what kind of addictions do you work with mostly?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:05:08]:
Right now, it’s mainly alcohol and cocaine, cannabis. Those seem to be the 3 at least up here. When I was working in the States, when I worked in Mississippi, it seemed to be opiates, methamphetamine, and alcohol as well, heroin, like those type of concerns. So, yeah, those are those are the 3 main ones, I would say. There’s quite a few, but the 3 main ones.
Eric Fisher [00:05:36]:
So you you you do live in Mississippi. Are are you from Mississippi? You’re in Canada now. So are you where are you from originally?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:05:42]:
Yeah. So I am originally from 10 well, born in Arkansas, raised in Tennessee since I was 6 years old, and I did my professional work in Mississippi outpatient and inpatient at a drug treatment facility in Mississippi Corinth, Mississippi. And I’ve been up here in Canada since August of 2014, so coming up on 10 years. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:06:03]:
Oh, wow. Are are you, like, a Canadian citizen or or or not not quite?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:06:08]:
I’m a permanent resident, so I get the green card equivalent. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:06:12]:
Oh, wow. Is that is that something that that if somebody anybody can do if they decide they wanna make the move and decide they wanna live in Canada?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:06:20]:
Yeah. I believe so, especially if they have a sponsorship with the family or a spouse. Like, my wife is from Canada, from Calgary. So that’s the reason I surrendered up here, and that’s the reason I was able to get the fiance visa and then eventually getting the permanent residency. So, yeah, I I think that it’s it’s possible. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:06:43]:
Oh, yeah. Sorry. A side side topic, but but interesting, definitely. You know, always interesting to think about, you know, North America and just all of America is more than just the United States. You know? So but yeah. So, as far as those substances you mentioned, they’re definitely, you know, not well, you know, he of course, here we think of opioids first. You know, that’s the big news is the the opioid epidemic, which is a major issue. And people do say sometimes that we we forget about the other substances and maybe even non substance addictions because opioids have taken the center stage.
Eric Fisher [00:07:23]:
But, yeah, cocaine and amphetamine addiction is is really difficult, especially when it’s combined with opioids or alcohol. You know, like, especially when we try to treat someone for an opioid addiction, and they also are using a stimulant. And then, you know, it it just gets really difficult because now, you know, they they might are they gonna take their Suboxone or meth I guess, methadone, they take it in front of, you know, the clinic. But, it doesn’t always necessarily help with the stimulant addiction. It just becomes a very complicated thing. So yeah, how how do you deal with that differently? Like, cocaine addiction or cocaine use?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:08:01]:
Yeah. With cocaine use, of course, yeah, it being a stimulant. So we’re looking at high risk activities often being something to look at. Anything can trigger anything can trigger that addiction response in the brain as far as seeking out escape or order relief. So when it comes to, yeah, say cocaine, a lot of the folks I’ve worked with with cocaine use, yeah, very much wanting to do those type of activities, so looking at boundaries around those. Just like with other substances that could be on the street looking at, you know, who are their dealers, is there some different tactics we need to do to look at boundaries around that? Can we look at cocaine and all you know, can we look at these different support groups that can be there, whether it’s NA or CA or if they don’t mind going to AA, but it’s it it would be nice to have more specific support group or LifeRing or Smart Recovery or Recovery Dharma that’s up here. And so I do believe that we’re looking at it from a biopsychosocial spiritual angle with cocaine use even if it’s some other substance. And so I’m trying to I wanna be able to definitely look at the cocaine, but I wanna look at what’s underneath that cocaine use as well, especially spiritually.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:09:19]:
Because they’re getting this stimulant, and it’s definitely interfering with that ability to find that humanity, the freedom, the ability to choose. Like, it’s a disease of choice, really. So I wanna look at the holistic approach of cocaine use, yeah, or any substance.
Eric Fisher [00:09:38]:
Have have you seen a lot of people have success in in overcoming that addiction? And and and overcoming might be might not be the right word because, you know, I think that probably that kind of addiction is with a person for life to some extent. But, have you seen a lot of people successfully get into recovery and stay cocaine or amphetamine free for a long time?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:10:00]:
Yeah. Those are 2 that are very high up with relapse rates. I have seen people get into recovery from those more so on an inpatient basis. I haven’t worked with a lot of folks on, like, a private outpatient basis with cocaine use, but from the time that I was in inpatient work, yeah, I’ve seen people. I think one of the biggest pieces with cocaine use is that hedonic rehabilitation, like pleasure rehab, really, as far as finding those different activities that give that dopamine because that post acute withdrawal syndrome with cocaine use can be quite debilitating. And so finding different ways. It’s not just like stopping the cocaine use and then go on your merry way as far as a very, you know, thin cookie cutter treatment plan. It’s finding those different activities they can start to bring into their life again.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:10:58]:
Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:10:58]:
Yeah. There’s probably a lot of triggers in life, you know, crossover and things that that bring back those thoughts and feelings to a person. Although the spirituality seems to be that that safe safe space, you know, like, where addiction can’t cross over into it. So I guess when people focus on things that are spiritually related, then, you know, that that’s kind of a safe zone.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:11:19]:
Yeah. Absolutely. But what’s nourishing to me instead of what’s poisonous? Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:11:25]:
Yeah. That’s that’s really good. And, you also mentioned cannabis, and that that must be a difficult thing now because, you know, cannabis is now it’s it’s legal in a lot of places, and, it’s a lot of promotion as far as people promoting it as being completely safe. No one gets killed by it. It it treats so many different kinds of illnesses and mental health conditions. And at the same time, there’s almost certainly people that abuse it, misuse it, and are probably even addicted to it. And, you know, might might be hard for you know, it it’s much easier to get and, you know, not as many people supporting, you know, saying, well, that it it is a a possible addiction. So what yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:12:06]:
How how has that been an issue?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:12:09]:
I can remember the day here in Canada when they legalized cannabis across the board. It was a very interesting day just to wake up and realize, yeah, it’s now legal. Like, you know, there are stores popping up. There still is. I think there’s 4 cannabis stores in my, like, suburb where I live. And so like you mentioned, doctor Leeza, I do believe that the intent behind the usage is important, the motivation behind the usage. And like you said, Mark, like, what’s this use what what’s this use for? You know, like, what’s the usage amount? And it made it really difficult when I was doing an intensive outpatient program, and we were drug testing people. And, you know, it can reside in the fat cells for an extended period of time after use depending on age, gender, frequency of use.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:13:03]:
And sometimes doing those drug screenings, we would wanna know, like, you just hope that they’re being truthful, like, how long ago was it that that was last used? Because it could have been 2, 3 weeks ago in the last used, and it’s still in the in the body. So it’s a very it’s a very it’s a lot a lot more complicated because not necessarily a physiological, addictive component, more psychological. So that can also be challenging to work with. And yeah. So it’s it’s very multifaceted with Canvas.
Eric Fisher [00:13:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine it might be difficult for someone to even decide or come to the conclusion or realize that they’re even addicted. You know, that there’s that fine line. You know, like like with alcohol, there’s what they call a gray area drinker, you know, a person who is not does not definitely have alcoholism or alcohol addiction, but they may occasionally binge binge drink. And alcohol is definitely having a detrimental effect on their life, but at such a low level that they are either in denial of it or, you know, just I I would think cannabis is very similar to that, that a person could use a little bit here and there, And it might be really difficult to say, is it really hurting them or is it not hurting them? But how much better could their life be if they just cut it off completely? And maybe it would be a lot better. So kind of that that gray area between addiction and non addiction.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:14:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. And that gray area can be very thin or very thick depending on the person’s history with that substance. There is that progression as far as with alcohol or any substance. No use, maybe social experimental use, starting to misuse, and then dependency slash addiction. And we hope that people are able to awareness can be definitely impacted, but we you know, there’s usually people that have come in to me in my life and say, hey. You know, don’t you feel like you’re drinking a little bit too much, or don’t you think you’re smoking a little bit too much? It’s like, oh, okay.
Eric Fisher [00:15:18]:
Is cannabis completely legal? Like, do they keep track of how much people are using? Or, like, can you just go buy it and nobody cares what your name is or who you are?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:15:29]:
Yeah. I mean, as long as someone is I can’t remember if it’s 18 or 21. Yeah. But I could go into a store this morning and show my ID and purchase the substance. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:15:46]:
That’s just like like buying alcohol in a liquor store.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:15:49]:
Yeah. Pretty much.
Eric Fisher [00:15:51]:
Because I I think here I think in you know, the laws will vary from one state to another, but I think in places where they’ve, made recreational use legal, that that they may still track how much a person is using per month and have a registry.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:16:06]:
I’m not sure about that, Mark, as far as how how they do track it or record how much someone is purchasing. I’m not sure about that. I do know that the people that own the store, even people that work at the store have to go through a specialized training Yeah. To to work there. But I’m not sure about that.
Eric Fisher [00:16:27]:
Well, that yeah. Definitely, like, in the age of fentanyl, that’s the most important thing is to make sure that that what people are being sold is is safe and regulated and that they’re getting what they think they’re getting.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:16:38]:
Yeah. For sure. I used to work in a drugstore in Tennessee, and I was a teenager. We we started to have to put Sudafed behind the store shelves and people had to sign off. And I remember one person coming in and wanting 5 boxes, and I said, you’re gonna have to sign for this. And he just walked away. You know? Like
Eric Fisher [00:16:56]:
Oh. Yeah.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:16:58]:
Okay. Well, we knew that was probably gonna be used for meth or something like that.
Eric Fisher [00:17:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. That was, like yeah. Before before they did that, I mean, there was a time when they were selling, you know, huge quantities of, like, ephedrine, just not even Sudafed, but just plain ephedrine in special, like, tablets that had no, additives to them. You know? Clearly, they were meant to be just crushed up and and used in that that way. So, but, yeah, that’s and that’s a whole other thing. What what do you think of as far as the difference of, dependence and addiction? You know, dependence thing you know, there there’s drugs that that people say have are are very highly addictive, but maybe don’t have a physical dependence component so much, like cocaine and amphetamine. You know, a person can stop taking them and not get physically sick or be in danger physically, where alcohol is addicting and has a physical dependence, you know, where where you can actually you can die, have a seizure if you don’t get medical treatment when you when you detox.
Eric Fisher [00:18:04]:
Opioids are similar. You know, maybe not as deadly of a detox, but there’s definitely physical dependence to overcome. And then the interesting thing is the the Benzodiazepines and and and I think a lot of other psych drugs also have a physical dependence, where if you stop taking them suddenly, you’ll get physically sick, maybe even, you know, in serious danger like the benzos. If you quit them suddenly, you’ll you can have a seizure. Even things like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, all the psych drugs. You know, if someone quits them suddenly, they could have a withdrawal syndrome. But the interesting thing is that the Benzodiazepines are in an interesting class where they’re probably not very addictive, but a lot of people see them as addictive because they do have abuse potential. Peers can definitely abuse Xanax, abuse Valium, but they they don’t seem to be addictive in the same way that that a lot of the other drugs are.
Eric Fisher [00:18:58]:
And it’s just it’s an what what do you think of the benzo what have you seen with with Benzodiazepines as addictive or nonaddictive or people having issues with them?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:19:08]:
I work with a person right now who has addiction involving Xanax, and that Xanax often goes along with cocaine use. I do see that there has been some dependence potential. I don’t believe people go out of their way. Nobody wakes up one day and says, I wanna be having addiction to any type of substance or process behavior, gambling, sex, pornography, whatever. So I do feel like there is a concern. It it can be characterized as alcohol and appeal with those type of that type of drug class. Yeah. I do I do get the sense it can be a concern.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:19:48]:
Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:19:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think well, def and definitely in combination with cocaine. I mean, that’s Xanax is something I I’ve I’ve heard that cocaine dealers either give out or sell Xanax so the person can come down from their cocaine high. So those 2 would go together just like alcohol, and cocaine would go together. Actually, cocaine and alcohol, I think they create a whole new drug in the brain. Like, cocaethylene, I think it’s what it is, and it has a whole different different effect than than either drug, individually.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:20:19]:
I wouldn’t know that. Interesting.
Eric Fisher [00:20:20]:
I wrote a blog post a while ago about copayethylene. It was like an interesting topic to research. But, a more dangerous substance than either drug individually, of course. Then, you know, when someone I think also when someone has an addiction to, say, alcohol and cocaine, you know, that that might be like a a treatment a way you can approach treatment. Like, let’s see if if we can like, I remember there was a guy that that came into our office with that, and I didn’t have much to help him with with the cocaine addiction. But I said, let’s focus on the alcohol because he said he only uses cocaine when he drinks. Like, well, if we can stop him from drinking, maybe that’ll solve both problems.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:20:59]:
Absolutely. That’s a really good example of getting to the root. I looking specifically at this substance to help with this other one. I do feel it’s the same with this person I’m working with where, first, it’s the Xanax to get, just taking the edge, and then it’s a stimulant use. And then Xanax probably again. But I have worked with people where it’s the alcohol, and then it’s a process behavior like sex addiction, or sexual behaviors. And if they didn’t do that substance, they would not act out maybe sexually in a certain way, like methamphetamine and then sexually, which really, from what I’ve read, true addiction involving sex doesn’t necessarily mean that at first, take a substance and then as behaviors, they can be separate by itself with, like, the sexual addiction. Yeah.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:21:55]:
Anyway, that’s just another manifestation of what you mentioned as far as, you know, the alcohol and cocaine.
Eric Fisher [00:22:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. That that probably makes, that element of recovery difficult because it’s not something that’s easy for for people to to talk about, especially in a, like, a meeting of, you know, strangers, you know, like, in a 12 step meeting, and then to talk about, like, what what their triggers are. And there are probably some that are pretty embarrassing.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:22:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much shame and there’s so much shame in addiction, and there’s a lot of shame and guilt coming into recovery. And I was my hope is with what I’m publishing in May of this year that it it helps to to to work on that shame, to be able to meet that shame, and to be able to process that shame and know that this is part of the process and that I can. It shows that I care about myself because I do feel the shame, you know, what I’ve done anyway.
Eric Fisher [00:22:55]:
And so so that when you say publishing in May, that that’s this book that we’re that we’ve been talking about, the, the martial art of recovery, So that so that this this would be an excellent book for for a, a family member or a person or a loved one, you know, relating to, like, a person going through an addiction. It could be sex addiction, could be cocaine or methamphetamine or any substance addiction, maybe even gambling addiction. You know? I mean, certainly, these addictions all have common, you know, something in common as far as, like, a person is driven to to meet a need for you know, I guess addiction is a hard thing to define in the first place. And I think in the 12 step recovery, they define it as, like, well, you know you know you’re an addict, so you know what it is. And then, you know, in the medical community, psychiatrists will say, like, well, that’s not even a medical term. That’s more of a layperson term. And other parts of the medical community will say, like, well, we’ve come up with a really complicated definition of addiction, of, you know, the 5 c’s of addiction or whatever. And, but I but I think, like, they’re trying to, like, bring it all together and say that there is something that’s addiction, and maybe it’s a little different with each substance or activity.
Eric Fisher [00:24:07]:
But there’s a commonality, you know, that underlying all of it.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:24:12]:
And I feel that that would be shame and disconnection, the commonality pain, really, emotional, spiritual, mental pain. And my hope is with the the book that, yes, it can be, Mark, as you mentioned, like, across the board, whatever substance, whatever process behavior that’s debilitating for someone that they can they can use that material. And also family members to learn more about addictions as well and how what to look out for, what to support, you know, boundaries, etcetera.
Eric Fisher [00:24:44]:
So that that’s coming up soon in May. So can people preorder your book?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:24:49]:
Not yet. But, yeah, my hope is that it’ll be soon available to preorder in the next few weeks. Yeah. I just have to figure out how to do that. This is my first book, so I have to figure out how to set up the preorder. Yeah.
Eric Fisher [00:25:02]:
Okay. And where’s where’s, like, the primary place or the best place to to order the book?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:25:07]:
More than likely, it’s gonna be on Amazon primarily, and then we’ll look at either IngramSpark or another aggregate site like Draft2Digital, which will put it on multiple platforms. So I would say Amazon.
Eric Fisher [00:25:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely wanna get the preorder thing going because, when you when you set up your categories and preorders, a lot of books quickly become bestsellers just in preorder, even before they go for sale. So, in fact, one of our recent guests, Doctor. Lloyd Setter, who’s a psychiatrist and has worked for years in the addiction field, his new book, unexpectedly, he didn’t even think it was gonna it just it became a bestseller just in preorder, and, you know, we were really excited about that. And, yeah, it’s always great to to say you have a best selling book. And and I think I think your book is is really fascinating. It’s a unique approach.
Eric Fisher [00:26:01]:
It’s a unique perspective on addiction. And it’s something that, you know, there’s a lot of stuff out there that’s just more of the same, and this is not more of the same. This is something new and interesting and different. And, I think it could really help a lot of people. So, yeah, people should where where can people find you and and maybe keep in touch? Do you have, like, a website where people can can look you up?
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:26:23]:
Sure. Recovery arts counseling.com, and that’s counseling with 2 l’s and some in Canada. They can also find me at recovery arts counseling on Instagram. Just typing that in or Facebook, Recovery Arts Counseling, LinkedIn, the same, Recovery Arts Counseling. Or they can just hit me a message on my professional account, Eric Fisher, and Okay. Calgar Burton.
Eric Fisher [00:26:49]:
Yeah. Of course. We’ll have we’ll have the website link in the show notes so people who who are listening to this on any podcast platform will be able to see it easily there. So, okay. Eric Fisher, thank you again for joining me, and I can’t wait for the book to come out in May, the martial art of recovery. So thank you.
Mark Leeds, D.O. [00:27:07]:
Thank you, doctor Lee, for having me on the show. Appreciate it.
