What does it mean to make a home out of yourself?
Shortly before her memoir came out in September 2024, I spoke with Ginelle Testa, a writer and content marketer. Her book, Making a Home Out of You, is a coming-of-age story about drugs, alcohol, relationships, and body image.
At 0:19, she explained the idea behind the title. For years she made homes in substances, behaviors, and other people, instead of learning to be comfortable in her own skin. By the end of the book, she said, she begins to figure out how to do that. Not perfectly, but for real.
How did substance use fit into a story about relationships?
From 0:59, Ginelle described using whatever drugs she could get as a young teenager and then drinking through her late teens. She stopped drinking at twenty-one and, when we spoke, had about ten years of sobriety. She did not need medication to stop, she said, because her drug use was recreational and short-lived.
Still, in her telling the substances were never the center. At 4:13, she said her main problem was sex and relationships, and that the root of her issues was relational more than it was chemical. At 6:27, she remembered a high school partner who persuaded her to start selling ecstasy so the two of them would always have it. She went along with complete disregard for her own well-being.
What does codependency look like from the inside?
I asked about codependency at 4:33, because I think many people struggle with it without understanding how it works. At 4:51, Ginelle described it as control in both directions. She wanted to control her partner, her partner wanted to control her, and each felt responsible for the other’s life.
None of that works for her anymore, and she is learning healthy boundaries and how to soothe herself. Interestingly, she also pushed back on the way the word gets thrown around. In her view, it is fine to depend on other people a little, and the trouble begins only when one person becomes your only source of support.
Why does one problem seem to replace another?
At 7:00, Ginelle described a void she kept trying to fill, whether with drugs and alcohol, relationships, or eating disorder patterns. She compared recovery to a game of whack-a-mole. You deal with one thing, and something else pops up asking for attention.
At 7:41, I said I saw what she meant. A person stops drinking or using drugs and then develops an eating disorder or starts smoking more. Ginelle called these the layers of recovery. At 8:20, she even questioned how useful the phrase “in recovery” is, since so many people are dealing with something.
Why do some mutual-help groups object to medication for opioid use disorder?
From 8:43, I described the pushback buprenorphine met. When buprenorphine came out, it worked remarkably well, yet much of the rehab and recovery world pushed back against it. At 9:56, I explained that Narcotics Anonymous has official literature taking a position against methadone, and more recent pamphlets against medication for opioid use disorder in general.
The same medication taken for pain is treated as an outside issue. Taken for opioid use disorder, it can keep a person from speaking in meetings or holding a service position. Ginelle had no idea, and she pointed out at 11:14 that Alcoholics Anonymous has no such position.
At 11:35, I said there is nothing wrong with buprenorphine, and that coming off it after a long time is not easy. That is because it creates physical dependence, which is a different issue from addiction. Some people are comfortable staying on a small amount, others are ready to stop, and everybody is different.
Is weight the real issue in an eating disorder?
At 2:23, Ginelle said she would not call her problem food addiction. It was an eating disorder that moved from anorexia to binge eating. Over the years of her sobriety, she worked with dietitians, therapists, and psychiatrists, and she found a lot of recovery through the Health at Every Size movement.
That approach, as she described it, focuses on healthy actions rather than on weight. So, the one Overeaters Anonymous meeting she attended, at 3:18, felt shaming because of its focus on weight and a strict food plan. At 14:03, she noted that some of her heavier friends run long distances while some thinner friends smoke and never exercise. In her view, weight is not the core issue.
Her own healing, she said at 16:00, came from eating more, not less. She had been restricting and then bingeing, and regular meals and snacks broke that cycle for her.
Does tracking food help or hurt?
At 16:27, I admitted that I have lost large amounts of weight on extreme diets, only to gain it back. Ginelle answered that restricting and exercising militantly is not healthy either. I said I do better with a plan, and asked what she thought about weighing food.
For her, at 18:05, tracking is triggering. She practices intuitive eating, listening to hunger and fullness so she never gets to the point of starving and then bingeing. Of course, if tracking helps someone else, she said, that is great. In fact, I admitted at 20:35 that I have rarely kept it up for more than a few weeks.
How did a writing challenge become a published memoir?
At 21:30, Ginelle explained that the book began during National Novel Writing Month, when writers set out to write a large number of words in the thirty days of November. After two years of jotting down her stories that way, she saw by the third year that they could become a book.
Years of professional writing had made publishing feel within reach, she said at 27:23. She had seen in meetings that sharing her story helped others feel less alone, and she hoped the book would do the same. At 28:07, she described choosing a hybrid publisher, where the author pays but gets editing, a cover, and distribution.
Who is Ginelle Testa?
Ginelle Testa is the author of the memoir Making a Home Out of You. She works in digital marketing for an education technology startup, where she is a content marketer, and she has a master’s degree in marketing. She began writing professionally as a dating writer before turning to her own story.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Ginelle’s story is a reminder that the substance is often not the whole problem. When a person keeps trying to fill the same empty space, stopping one thing can make room for another, and real progress comes from learning to be at home in oneself. Unfortunately, the help people find can also come with judgment, whether about weight or about medication. Yet, she found what worked for her by keeping what helped and leaving behind what did not.
How do I approach this today?
My thinking has kept developing since this conversation was recorded. Today my practice is built on one idea that runs through all of it: when the body has adapted to a substance, the safest way off is usually gradual, with the smallest steps the person’s nervous system can tolerate. Physical dependence is not addiction.
For opioid dependence I prescribe buprenorphine, which steadies the body so a person can rebuild their life without the cycle of withdrawal. Visits are monthly, or weekly when needed. Some people stay on it for a long time, and that is a legitimate choice. Others later taper slowly, using the same gradual approach I use for every other medication.
I believe medication for opioid dependence should be available wherever people need it. I prescribe in Florida only.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (33 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:00] Ginelle Testa, welcome.
Ginelle Testa [00:02] Thank you. Excited to be here.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:04] Yeah, thank you for being here. And you’re the author of the book, Make a Home Out of You. Yes, it’s a memoir. Yeah, it sounds really interesting. So yeah, please tell us more about the book and your experience that led up to you writing the book.
Ginelle Testa [00:19] Sure, sure. So the book is mostly about relationship and drug and alcohol addiction, but there’s some body image stuff weaved in there. So it’s the idea that I made homes and substances, behaviors and people, instead of making a home of myself and learning to like, be comfortable in my own skin. So by the end of the book, I figure out how to start to do that. Not perfectly, but yeah, it’s a lot about recovery.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:44] Okay. And what drugs were like, I think alcohol was mentioned, like what drugs have you dealt with as far as drugs of choice and drugs that have been an issue? I mean, I know food is one of them and alcohol.
Ginelle Testa [00:59] So I’d say early days, it was like when I was a young teenager from 14 to 16, it was drugs. So it was like whatever I could get my hands on. For some reason, drugs were easier for me to get my hands on than alcohol, I guess maybe because my dad was a drug dealer and I was stealing them from him. But it was weed, opiates, ecstasy, coke, really anything I could get my hands on. And then from 16 to 21, it was alcohol. And I actually stopped drinking when I was 21 and I’m 32 now. So my using and drinking was only about eight years. And then I’ve been sober for 10.
Dr. Mark Leeds [01:37] Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. So that’s in the past. And did you ever get involved in any of these medication things like naltrexone or suboxone and all those kinds of things?
Ginelle Testa [01:48] I didn’t have to. My drug use was pretty short lived and not that like, I don’t know, I wasn’t using every day. I didn’t get like addicted to opiates. I just was using them recreationally. So I feel lucky for that. And then the drinking, I just sort of went to AA and, you know, got better after that. I don’t go to AA anymore, but I did go to AA for a long time.
Dr. Mark Leeds [02:11] Oh okay and what about the body image thing and issues with food like is that some how long have you like found like are you managing that well are you comfortable with that now
Ginelle Testa [02:23] Definitely so I wouldn’t say it’s food addiction it was more eating disorder so it morphed from anorexia to binge eating and I dealt with a lot of just discomfort around like eating like I either ate too much or too little and couldn’t find like some sort of healthy balance for me. And over the course of my sobriety, I’ve been able to work with dieticians, therapists, psychiatrists to deal with that as well. So I feel like I’m in a really good place with that. I saw a dietician for years. I don’t see her anymore because I feel good, but I found a lot of recovery through the health at every size movement. The idea that people at any size can take actions towards their health, that I don’t have to focus on weight. I don’t have to focus on food. I can just focus on like being healthy and what that means for me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:09] Yeah. Did you ever get involved with, what do they call it, like Overeaters Anonymous or any of the related programs?
Ginelle Testa [03:18] I went to one meeting and I found it pretty shaming. Like they, I don’t know, I really try not to emphasize on weight. I try to emphasize on, like I said, healthy actions. So they really harp on weight there and harp on like a strict food plan. And I, none of that was really what the recovery route that I was taking.
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:39] Yeah. Yeah. There’s, I did an interview with someone about, it was partly about, Gray Sheeters Anonymous, which is similar to Overeaters Anonymous. But I think the difference is that they, I think they carried on the food plan where overeaters stopped doing the food plan. But it was, it was, it was interesting. I mean, there was a lot of 12 step things and things about, you know, setting boundaries and dealing with relationships and things, you know, not not just the food itself and the, you know, but dealing with things that lead a person to overeat.
Ginelle Testa [04:13] Yeah that’s the thing it’s rarely about the substance or the whatever it is like my main problem was sex and relationships so that’s I actually went to sex and love addicts anonymous too in addition to AA and feel like that’s really where I dealt with the root of my issues was it was relational more than it was substance yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [04:33] Yeah what were you ever involved and maybe this is the thing of codependency, you know, being dependent on another person. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think that’s something that a lot of people are dealing with, and maybe we don’t understand what it is or how it works.
Ginelle Testa [04:51] Yeah, codependency was and still can continue to be a huge issue. I think codependency isn’t resolved overnight. I’ve been working on it for like, I don’t know, seven years. But codependency looked like to me, really like a lot of control within my relationship. So like wanting to control my partner, them wanting to control me like feeling responsible for my partner and their life or them feeling responsible for me. And just like this enmeshment where we sort of depended on each other to be okay. And that none of that works for me anymore. It feels gross. And so I’m really working on like having healthy boundaries and partnerships, having, yeah, just responsibility for my own wellbeing and responsibility for my own self-care and self-soothing. Of course, it’s okay to depend on, And I think codependency can sometimes be thrown around a lot like, oh, you shouldn’t depend on others ever because it’s codependent. I think there’s a good balance, right? Like it’s OK to depend on others a little bit. But when it’s your only source of dependence, that becomes a problem.
Dr. Mark Leeds [05:49] Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. And I think that’s a difficulty for a lot of people with issues with relationships, you know, bad relationships. And what about narcissism? Has that played into the story at all of what things that have happened to you?
Ginelle Testa [06:06] No, I don’t think so. I’ve been fortunate to not deal with many narcissists, mostly just people who are a little broken and codependent like me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [06:15] Yeah. Has a codependency like played in with, you know, eating disorder or drug use in the past of, you know, like two people saying it’s OK for you to do it because I’m doing it also? So
Ginelle Testa [06:27] Definitely I remember in high school, I had a partner convinced me to start selling ecstasy because he wanted us to have like a good access to it and good, like make sure we had it all the time and like didn’t have to pay for it. So, yeah, I was like, OK, well, he wants me to do that. So I’ll do it with complete disregard to like my well-being and like what that would do to me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [06:51] Yeah yeah and so the problem during that time period was probably not so much the ecstasy but the relationship issue
Ginelle Testa [07:00] Definitely yeah it was always about like because if I wasn’t in a relationship I was pursuing a relationship and like pursuing the next thing and I think I was always like seeking seeking seeking and there was like this void that I felt so whether I was filling that with drugs and alcohol or relationships or you know eating disorder patterns it was it was always something yeah it used to be I shouldn’t say that I’m not like perfectly healed you know we play whack-a-mole in recovery that like you deal with something and then something else pops up and it’s like oh here I’m here to pay attention to now yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [07:34] Yeah I thought for a second I thought you meant literally whack-a-mole because that’s actually one of my favorite games
Ginelle Testa [07:39] Oh
Dr. Mark Leeds [07:41] I think I can probably beat anybody at whack-a-mole but I haven’t played for a while so I don’t know that’s awesome but yeah I see what you mean though like that you know you know like maybe someone goes in recovery to stop using alcohol or drugs or both and then you know they develop an eating disorder or they start smoking more and you know now you have a new problem to deal with
Ginelle Testa [08:01] Exactly so it almost never ends but that’s okay that’s like the layers of recovery yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:08] Yeah yeah I guess like nobody’s finished with it you’re always like working on you know fine you know I don’t mean like you’re looking for the next problem to solve but there’s always something to work on.
Ginelle Testa [08:20] Right. And I go back and forth about like the term in recovery, because I’m like, how many humans have trauma or some sort of addictive issue, whether that’s with food or cigarettes or TV or something like I feel like we’re all dealing with something. So I’m like, how much is the term in recovery useful? How much is it not like I do have addiction issues? So maybe it’s useful. I don’t know. I go back and forth about it.
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely like there’s, you know, eating disorders are psychological and psychiatric issues that people should be seeing someone qualified to deal with that. One thing I’ve learned recently, I have a lot of patients that I’ve worked with in treating opioid dependence. But then I find that they also have other medical treatments, because I’m asking about what medications are you on, what doctors are you seeing, that a lot of people are now getting on medication. Now they have weight loss medications or weight management medications that are actually working for people, as opposed to everything that’s come up until now. And it’s interesting, though, that, you know, people are reporting. It almost seems like, you know, like when buprenorphine or Suboxone came out, it was kind of a miracle drug that it really worked well. But there was a lot of pushback from the, you know, the whole rehab recovery industry. I mean, NA is against it. Narcotics Anonymous has an official position that they don’t approve of methadone or Suboxone.
Ginelle Testa [09:51] I wasn’t aware of that. It’s supposed to have no opinion on outside issues. That’s interesting.
Dr. Mark Leeds [09:56] They, yeah, they don’t have, that’s, that’s really interesting with NA. And I still, I wish I could talk to like the top people and interview them and ask like, what is, and I know that they don’t all agree that there’s people that are within the organization. There’s a lot of people that don’t agree with that, but that’s the official position is they actually have documents. You know, they have all these pamphlets that you can pick up in a meeting and you can find them online. And I think the one for methadone is actually called Bulletin 29. And that was from 1996. And it’s very much against methadone. And there’s more recent ones against all any kind of medication for addiction. And the thing is that you could take, if you take suboxone or actually buprenorphine, which is the ingredient in suboxone, if a person takes it for pain, that’s an outside issue. That falls under, they have a thing called, I think it’s called in times of need or something. There’s a 42 page pamphlet that basically says, if you’re taking something for a medical condition, That’s an outside issue and it’s none of our business. But if the same drug is used for pain, it’s outside. If it’s used for addiction, then they don’t approve of it. And you shouldn’t be talking in meetings. You shouldn’t be taking a service position. You shouldn’t be counting clean time.
Ginelle Testa [11:09] Oh, my God. That’s horrible. I had no idea that was the case.
Dr. Mark Leeds [11:13] Yeah.
Ginelle Testa [11:14] AA isn’t that way. AA has no opinion.
Dr. Mark Leeds [11:17] Yeah, as far as I know, that’s only NA. AA is different. AA, individual people and groups might have their opinions, but there’s no top level position on that subject.
Ginelle Testa [11:28] Wow, I wasn’t aware of that. That’s horrible. Because drugs are so useful to people. My dad is on Suboxone.
Dr. Mark Leeds [11:35] Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with it. It is literally it’s a miracle drug. It’s not perfect. I mean, it’s difficult to get off of if a person’s been on it for a long time and they decide I’m ready to try life without it. I mean, it’s not something that people have to be on forever. Everybody’s different. Some people would feel comfortable staying on a small amount indefinitely. But there’s also a lot of people that feel that they’re done with it and ready to come off of it. And you know so everybody’s different but yeah coming off of it is not easy that because it does it helps a lot with the addiction but it creates a physical dependence which is a different whole different issue being physically dependent and getting sick when you try to reduce it but it is something that can be managed and there’s new ways that they’re coming up with there’s some doctors that are talking about using the you know they have a shot version of it the Sublocade and there’s another one called Brixadi but Sublocade is from the same company as suboxone and it’s a monthly shot so some people have discovered that the shot can be a way to come off like after you’ve done a year or more of suboxone that you can switch to the shot and then kind of it’s like a natural kind of long-term tapering solution because a shot can take months or even up to a year to wear off and yeah it’s really I’m sorry to get off the subject of what we’re talking about before but
Ginelle Testa [12:57] No yeah that’s really interesting I had no idea about that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [12:59] Yeah, but I think the medical treatments are so, it’s interesting how people want like a treatment and then a treatment comes out and then they’re like, well, I don’t know, maybe that’s not, maybe that’s not a good idea. You know, like, like these, all these diabetes drugs that now we’re finding out like treat weight management so well, and people are resisting them and saying like, you know, there’s a shortage. Those should only be for the people with diabetes. There’s a lot of problems with them. But really, I interviewed somebody recently and she said, it’s made her for the first time feel like she’s full. Like she never knew what it was like to feel full after eating and doesn’t binge anymore because she can eat and be done with it. And, you know, so I’m hearing good things about that. But and not that I’m recommending it to anybody. But yeah, but it is interesting, though, like when there’s a condition where there’s, you know, support and psychological treatments and counseling and coaching are the only thing available. And suddenly there’s a medical treatment that comes out. It’s like revolutionary, but the establishment might resist it for a long time.
Ginelle Testa [14:03] I personally feel mixed about Ozempic and those. And like, I forget what the other ones are called, but because I don’t always think that weight is the core issue. I think there’s a lot of weight bias and there’s a lot of that goes into medical teams. And I feel like it’s more about like the actions that people are taking. Like it’s more because I have friends that are that run miles and miles that are heavier than me. And I have friends that don’t work out, smoke cigarettes, you know, all this and that are thinner than me. Like weight isn’t the core issue. You know, it’s more like the health actions that you take. So if Ozempic is, I have a friend that we had this conversation recently where I was like, oh, I feel weird about Ozempic. And she was saying that she struggles with emotional binge eating disorder and that Ozempic is helping her manage those cravings and she’s not eating 4000 calories before she goes to bed every night. And that’s like, yeah, if that helps her, then that’s great. Yeah,
Dr. Mark Leeds [14:56] I think maybe it’s possible that this is like a theory just popped in my head just now that, you know, when a person has diabetes, you know, that you can measure their blood sugar is high on average for over a period of time. And then they have pre-diabetes, you know, where you can say, well, you’re not diabetic yet, but we see that your blood sugar is a little bit high in response to taking, you know, eating sugar or whatever. You know, they have tests where they can say, well, you’re not quite diabetic, but you’re on the verge of becoming. And what if there’s like a pre-diabetic you know where there’s no physical signs whatsoever but there’s a thing in the brain that’s like pushing the person to that and you know because apparently these things like ozempic and the other similar ones work not only on the stomach and blood sugar and the pancreas and all these other areas apparently works on the brain also to you know to help take away the sugar cravings and the carb cravings and make people feel satisfied with their food. So, you know, maybe that whole condition, you know, starts in the, in the brain and like a pre, pre, pre-diabetic or something like that.
Ginelle Testa [16:00] Yeah. It’s interesting. My friend and I were just having this conversation where I was saying that the way that I healed my eating disorder recovery was by eating more and not in a binge way, but like by eating breakfast, eating lunch, eating dinner and eating snacks in between, because my problem was that I was restricting and then binging. And like, so I think for me, I didn’t need something like that, but it’s not to say that other people don’t need something like that. Like, who am I to say whether or not that’s a necessary treatment?
Dr. Mark Leeds [16:27] Oh yeah. Everybody has, has their own path and what works for them. But I can relate to the, you know, over the years, I’ve lost huge amounts of weight by, following crazy diet plans of, you know, excessive exercising. And like, Like I was thinking back to diet I did years ago where I had like three protein bars a day and that was like my whole, all I would eat, nothing else. And then go on the, you know, the treadmill for an hour every day. And, you know, I think I lost like 50 or 60 pounds and I’m like, you know, everybody’s all like congratulating me like, wow, that was great. You lost all that weight. And, you know, then within a short time, I’m like gaining it all back again. I mean, I, over the years.
Ginelle Testa [17:04] It’s about, it’s about the actions that you take. It’s not about the weight, you know, it’s like if you’re, if you’re restricting and militantly exercising, like that’s not healthy either.
Dr. Mark Leeds [17:14] Yeah. Yeah. It’s really, that’s the thing. It’s hard to find, you know, like, you know, I mean, for me, yeah, I guess that’s the thing, you know, working with professionals is the right thing to do because, otherwise if there’s no plan, you know, I, if I have no plan, I’ll just go get completely out of control. Like, you know, finishing people’s food, you know, food gets left around. I’m like, wow, that looks good on the plate. You know, like why would they waste that? And, yeah, I mean, It just, you know, just like when they say tracking a workout, you know, when people work out and you should track your workout because otherwise you have no idea like whether you’re making progress or not. I kind of agree with the idea. And this is something in that Gray Sheeters Anonymous program is I think that they are very strict about tracking food. And, you know, some people are not in favor of tracking, but I don’t know. What do you think about food tracking? Like weighing your food?
Ginelle Testa [18:05] I personally like absolutely cannot do that. I subscribe to like intuitive eating where like I pay attention to my body’s hunger and fullness cues where I like, and that’s, that’s where eating enough comes in. Because if I let myself get to the point where I’m starving, then I’ll binge and I’ll eat a bunch of stuff that I, and I’ll feel bad. But if I’m like paying attention to my hunger throughout the day and I’m like, Oh, I could use a snack in between meals and I’m like feeding myself enough. I’m able to like tune into that. So not able to do that though. So if you’re not able to do that and food tracking helps you, then great. But for me, it’s like really triggering. It reminds me of MyFitnessPal days where I was counting my almonds. Like it’s really triggering.
Dr. Mark Leeds [18:46] Yeah. Years ago, Weight Watchers had a plan. And over the year, every few years, they changed their plans. So for people that kind of go back to them, you know, leave and gain weight and then go back and try Weight Watchers again, it’s always some new flashy plan. And they have all these like fancy, colorful pamphlets. And I remember they at one point they had two plans one was I think like the core plan and one was the old tracking plan and the old plan was like where you track points which is basically calorie counting you know using their way of calorie counting and then the I think it was called the core plan and it was here here’s all the foods you can eat and you don’t have to keep track of them but they did have a hunger scale they had like a diagram showing I’m a little bit satisfied with my food I’m a little bit hungry I’m very hungry or very over full and you never want to be at either full end of the scale. You want to like, you know, keep, always keep assessing yourself. I guess like in terms of the steps, like I think it’s a 10 step, like we’re always like monitoring your, you know, your feelings or what’s happening. Yeah. Like, I guess you’re like always think, I don’t know if it’s the same thing really, but thinking like, am I, am I a little hungry? Am I too hungry? And, you know, but at the same time, eating all these natural foods, you know, things that are like high in fiber and like fruits and vegetables and lean meats probably. But, you know, so they had a whole series of what they call the zero point foods. I think actually that’s how they do it now. I think they in their more recent plans, they kind of combined and mesh them together where you have the zero point foods that you can, in theory, eat as much as you want to. But you’re not supposed to eat them. You know, like, for example, like if you get like a big three pound bin of grapes, you know, even though it’s a zero point food, you can’t just binge and eat the whole thing because it wouldn’t work.
Ginelle Testa [20:26] Right. Yeah, it’s tricky. I don’t know. I don’t like the Weight Watchers point system, but it just doesn’t work for me. Maybe it works for other people.
Dr. Mark Leeds [20:35] Well, it’s tracking. Tracking is like, I mean, honestly, even though I like it, I have not been consistent with tracking for probably more than a few weeks at a time. Because it is like, you know, even when they make it as easy as possible, like they have, like I like an app now called Lose It, which is pretty good. And it’s still annoying to have to type in the food or scan the food and everything. I mean, sometimes you can pre-track, you can plan your food for the day. But, you know, but yeah, if, you know, my eating plan includes like, you know, getting a pizza and nobody’s watching how many pieces I’m eating and I’m not tracking anything, definitely it’s not going to work. I’ll probably eat half the pizza at least. So I don’t know. Sorry. But yeah, so let’s talk more about the book. Tell me about like, like what made you decide to write this book?
Ginelle Testa [21:30] Sure. Yeah. So national novel writing month, NaNoWriMo happens every November. And it’s like, it’s a month where writers set out to write 50,000 words in 30 days. And it’s like a, just a worldwide thing. So I started to jot down my addiction stories and like my trauma stories and like early things that have happened in my life. I just started to jot them down for that. And I did 50,000 words of it and the next year I did it again and then the third year I was like oh I could do something with this and just started to patch the stories together in like a linear way and made a book out of it and yeah just the idea of making a home out of you came to me like in recent years like the last two years and it just felt like a thread that went throughout everything like all the eating stuff the relationship stuff and the drug and alcohol stuff. Yeah, it felt like it was thematic throughout the whole thing.
Dr. Mark Leeds [22:21] Yeah. So that’s like somewhere between one and 2000 words a day.
Ginelle Testa [22:26] Yeah, it’s 1600 words a day.
Dr. Mark Leeds [22:28] Okay. Which I mean, you know, for people that think that’s terrifying, it’s manageable, you know, once you get used to it. You know, I mean, even 2000 words a day. I mean, you know, it depends on the quality and if it’s being part of a consistent book, but a person can write high quality. I think I read somewhere that Stephen King writes 2000 words a day, but then, you know, he’s also keeping track of all his characters and storylines and everything.
Ginelle Testa [22:53] And he’s, he’s a professional writer. Like he does nothing but write. So there’s that too. Like he doesn’t have a job like most of us.
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:01] Yeah. Yeah. So now I was, I saw, I saw somewhere that you have a, do you, do you do digital marketing? I saw that you have a history of it or is that what we currently do?
Ginelle Testa [23:14] Yeah, yeah. I work for an ed tech startup in digital marketing. I have a master’s in marketing, yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:20] Okay. And do you work on the content side of things as far as doing writing?
Ginelle Testa [23:24] I do, yeah. I’m a content marketer.
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:27] Oh, wow. Okay. Would that be more like blogs and SEO or would it be more like copywriting, advertising?
Ginelle Testa [23:34] It’s more blogs, SEO, social media. It’s that kind of content, yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:39] Oh, that’s great. So you already, that 1600 words a day was probably like fairly easy for you then?
Ginelle Testa [23:45] It’s hard because I write for work and then I go home and I write at night. So it’s like sometimes I get a little drained, but yeah, I am used to writing a lot.
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:55] Oh, wow. What do you think of all this AI stuff? Like everybody’s just like, you know, coming up with different ways to use AI to do the writing for them.
Ginelle Testa [24:05] I think AI is so useful for so many things like ideating, catching mistakes, thinking about what to do next. It’s not good for writing for you. Like I do not recommend writing an essay with AI, but I do recommend being like, I have this idea, what should I do with it? And AI can give you a couple options or like, here’s this piece I finished, what’s missing? Or like, where did I make a mistake? Like those sort of things AI is awesome for. But when I’ve written entire pieces with AI, it’s just, you can tell it’s AI.
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:35] Yeah, yeah. I mean, there is some stuff you can do if you keep, and I’m sure you’ve done this, if you keep developing the prompts. And apparently, I just am learning about this. If you have to tell the AI to play a role, I didn’t realize that, but apparently it’s really important to tell it to play the role of a, you know, like a professional copywriter or author of some kind. And the more specific you get about who the AI is pretending to be and who the audience it’s addressing is, you know, probably that makes a big deal and how it filters out its own information and experience oh
Ginelle Testa [25:06] That’s really interesting to know because I’m taking a writing class and I tried to have ai help me with the with some ideas and it was like just spinning out junk like I was like none of this is usable yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:16] Yeah actually I’m looking at this course and the guy showed that he shows the difference of he did a prompt where it would ask for places to visit I forgot what city it was he said within a certain city like places to visit and he just did like a general of open prompt of like, what are some great places to visit? And it gave like the most common tourist sites. And then he said, you know, be like a, I forgot what it was, like a food expert and on, you know, local unique places or, you know, like he gave it a very specific role to play and it found much better places. The same exact AI gave a completely different list of output and it was much more interesting.
Ginelle Testa [25:55] I love that. Yeah. It’s definitely worth fine tuning and being like no not like that be do less like cheesy or whatever like I give it prompts all the time yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [26:06] Yeah yeah so you can even like I think there’s one with ChatGPT you can make your own I actually just for the fun of it made my own therapist I programmed it to you know all the different things of how I wanted it to deal with me and issues and it was interesting I mean it kind of I felt like it was kind of spitting back the stuff I got into it initially you know like Like, you know, it still wasn’t like, I mean, I don’t know, like if you go to a real therapist, do they actually ever give like, like original things like you hadn’t thought about? Like, I don’t know if a therapist would serve that function of giving you ideas of how to solve problems.
Ginelle Testa [26:43] Sometimes, but usually she’s just like, hey, here’s what you already know about yourself. So let’s work with that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [26:51] Yeah. Yeah. So like helping you to like analyze what you already know about yourself or to see it more clearly.
Ginelle Testa [26:59] Yeah. She tries to like have me use my inner resources to solve a problem, you know, rather than being like, here’s a new thing that I mean, sometimes she’ll give me new ideas. But most of the time it’s like, let’s let’s work with what you already have.
Dr. Mark Leeds [27:11] Yeah so the book so what led you to like going from doing the challenge of 50 000 words in a month to actually publishing a real book and getting it out in the market and selling a book
Ginelle Testa [27:23] Yeah in 2016 I started writing professionally as a dating writer so I published 300 articles and I was like this publishing thing is really interesting like I wonder if I could do that with my book and like this book that I’m creating and I thought that yeah I just thought it might help people that my experience just like I experienced in the room sharing my story helps others connect identify feel less alone and I thought that it would be helpful for others and it was a passion I had I just really wanted to do it yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [27:59] So did you did you so is it self-publishing or did you go to a publisher and like how did it work
Ginelle Testa [28:07] I got a hybrid publisher so there’s three paths there’s self-publishing hybrid publishing and traditional publishing traditional is the traditional book deal where you get you get like paid to create the book self-publishing you pay for everything yourself and you don’t have like any of the benefits of traditional and then hybrid is you pay for it yourself but you get a lot of the benefits of traditional publishing, like distribution, and they do your cover, they edit it for you, they manage your data online, they, yeah, so I did that hybrid route.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:37] Oh, that’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. So now the book, is it, is it out already? Is it available?
Ginelle Testa [28:43] September 3rd.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:45] Oh, that’s great. And is it going to be available on Amazon?
Ginelle Testa [28:48] Yeah, it’s on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, Simon & Schuster, it’s all over. So it’s very exciting.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:55] Oh, that’s great. That’s great. Yeah. And you’re going to plan to be like a bestseller up front in your category.
Ginelle Testa [29:05] I doubt it. Since it’s hybrid publishing, it’s not going to be like in bookstores around the country like, you know, some books are. But that’s OK. I mean,
Dr. Mark Leeds [29:13] Yeah. Well, if we can if we can get the word out, you know, you know, people enough people preorder it. You know, you get apparently that’s the best way to become a bestseller is get a lot of preorders.
Ginelle Testa [29:24] Yeah yeah exactly so that’s that’s the hope but yeah I mean I’m just excited to be getting my book out there so it’s exciting for me
Dr. Mark Leeds [29:33] That’s really so who would the book be best like who would you think would would best benefit from reading it
Ginelle Testa [29:39] I think young adults anywhere from like 18 to 35 probably the best audience for it because it’s really a coming of age story I think anything anything younger than 18 is probably a little young to read it. It’s pretty spicy. But yeah, it’s about coming of age and growing into yourself. And it ranges from age 13 to age 29-ish. And I think people in recovery especially, but anyone who struggles with relationships or drugs and alcohol or body image issues, I think any of that will would be a fit.
Dr. Mark Leeds [30:19] Yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, sometimes it seems like, like in modern times, like a lot of these, I thought a lot of problems that people in my generation would kind of just go away because there’s so much connection and information available that, you know, because it just used to seem like you wanted to be part of the in crowd because you wanted to act like you knew like what was cool and what was going on. And, you know, know now like everybody has access to all the information in human history and you know but still you know the same problems you know maybe even worse problems have come up in more recent generations now
Ginelle Testa [30:54] That’s a really good point that like the internet didn’t fix everything yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [31:00] Yeah exactly like it made new problems you know now you have social media causing even worse problems and you think that people would know better than to get into like drugs and especially smoking cigarettes you’d think that people would know better but apparently like the little Juul thing got a lot of people hooked on nicotine
Ginelle Testa [31:20] Just be cool for teenagers like that’s that’s a cool thing yeah even though there’s no long-term studies of like the impacts of vaping
Dr. Mark Leeds [31:29] Yeah yeah although yeah but I feel you know maybe like it seems like kids today are like more kind of open about how they feel or something like that like there seems to be a little bit more awareness of psychological issues and mental health issues and feelings so maybe that’s a positive thing
Ginelle Testa [31:50] That’s very true yeah gen z is definitely more open to therapy and like talking about their feelings and you know embracing mental health issues that they can deal with
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:00] Yeah so if somebody wanted to like do you have a website that people can go to read about your story in the book and things like that?
Ginelle Testa [32:10] It’s G-I-N-E-L-L-E-T-E-S-T-A.com. And it’s also, I’m also on Instagram, TikTok, just Ginelle Testa. So people can connect with me on all those platforms.
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:22] Okay. Like, so on Instagram, it would be like the hat sign, then Ginelle Testa would be your name there.
Ginelle Testa [32:28] Exactly. Yep.
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:30] Okay. And what was the website again?
Ginelle Testa [32:35] It’s just my name ginelletesta.com
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:37] Oh okay oh that’s good okay so yeah we’ll put that in the show notes for the podcast okay yeah that’s great so yeah Ginelle thank you again for thank you for joining me today thank you
Ginelle Testa [32:48] Yeah thank you for having me
