Can food help heal the mind?
In February 2022, I spoke with Daniella Hunter, who lives in Tulum, Mexico, where she and her husband built a wellness hotel called Sanara. She also started a restaurant there, The Real Coconut, which she expected to serve only the hotel’s guests. Instead, it grew into a concept welcomed by people from around the world.
At 0:54, she described the food as gluten, grain, and dairy free, with no refined sugar, and built around crops that are easy on the planet. The response from guests drew her further into the question of how food can heal, and in particular how it relates to mental health.
This is an archive episode, recorded when the show covered addiction and mental health broadly. Our conversation ranged from the grocery store to the garden, and it ended on how to find a moment of peace.
Why has nutrition been left out of mental health care?
Daniella told me she keeps meeting people who see nutrition as undervalued in medicine, and in mental health care most of all. One psychiatrist she met now calls herself a nutritional psychologist for that reason.
At 3:05, I agreed. Unfortunately, people in residential programs often get poor nutrition, with plenty of carbohydrates and little thought given to the menu.
At 3:54, Daniella said visitors to her restaurant in Malibu had told her the same thing about centers there, where the food was white bread and sugar. She also pointed out that food itself can be habit forming. In her view, our relationship with food reflects our relationship with everything, because food is something none of us can avoid.
Does healthy eating have to mean complicated cooking?
At 5:19, I admitted that I would rather not open a recipe book at all. Most people are busy, and we are at the mercy of companies that market sugary, habit-forming food, including cereals sold to parents as healthy because vitamins have been added.
Daniella understood. From 6:44, she argued that food can be very simple and still nourishing. The bigger loss, as she sees it, is that a culture built on convenience has forgotten to honor food and where it came from.
Her suggestion was modest. Even once a day, put something on your plate that you recognize as having come from the earth or from a tree. That small act reconnects a person with nature, which she considers healing in itself.
Is organic food worth the extra cost?
At 10:04, I asked a question I have never settled for myself. Daniella’s mantra is to buy less and choose better quality. At 10:27, she suggested organic where possible and pointed to the lists published by the Environmental Working Group, which name the produce most worth buying organic and the produce where conventional is a reasonable choice.
At 12:23, she said she would avoid genetically modified foods even more than non-organic ones. Her concern was the way those crops are grown, which she linked to depleted soil and depleted gut bacteria. Interestingly, that led her straight back to mental health, since she sees the gut and the brain as powerfully linked.
Can growing something at home make a difference?
At 13:50, Daniella described urban farms that use hydroponics, sometimes in supermarket parking lots, so people in cities can reach fresh produce. At 14:31, she went further. Being in contact with anything living is healing, she said, and even a few plants indoors give a person something to look after and watch grow.
The same idea came back when she talked about plans for a quieter retreat. From 23:21, she described adding service, such as working in a garden or caring for animals. In her experience, getting our hands dirty or looking after something else can lift us out of our own story and away from despair.
At 24:40, she called animals great mirrors for us. Caring for something more vulnerable than ourselves, she said, draws out our gentleness.
Can a doctor connect with patients over video?
At 32:04, Daniella turned the question around and asked whether remote work made it harder for me to connect with patients. Not really, I told her. In fact, I thought it worked better in some ways, because I schedule visits for at least an hour and many patients use that whole hour to talk.
I also explained that a video visit can show me something an office never does, which is the conditions a patient lives in. Of course, a person still needs a primary care doctor and a periodic physical examination. Still, for the part of care that I provide, remote visits suit the work well and reach people who cannot easily get to a doctor.
What can someone do right away when life feels like survival mode?
From 33:36, I described a person trying to stop using drugs who is still working, still caring for a family, and filling the shopping cart with frozen meals because there is no time to cook. Medical care has its place, I said, but what could that person do right away?
At 34:20, Daniella said the wish to get out is already the driving factor. Her first step was to find moments to stop and be quiet, even if that means shutting yourself in the bathroom or sitting beside a small patch of grass or a tree. Then, in the supermarket, walk past the fruit and vegetables and simply ask what looks good and what you would like to taste.
Her book carries the same idea in its title, Nourish Yourself, Nurture Our World. For her, nourishment means everything we take in, including social media and the news, and what we take in shapes what we give out to other people.
Why do we avoid the places that calm us?
At 38:25, I confessed that our office was a short walk from the ocean, and in all the years we were there I might have walked over twice. People living in the buildings beside the beach often never go down to the sand either. Yet, standing at the water’s edge, especially at sunrise or sunset, is a remarkable experience.
At 39:19, Daniella added that standing barefoot on the ground is even better.
What does it mean to walk softly?
At 40:26, I asked about a phrase I had seen on her website, walking softly. From 40:44, she explained it as awareness of our choices, without judgment or expectation. When she is connected with herself, she said, her reactions and the way she communicates all become gentler.
In her view, everyone already knows true peace. We simply bury it under the noise of our lives and our stories, and it can surface in the most unexpected place, even the supermarket.
At 43:16, I said a person caught up in everything they have done wrong could stop where they are, take a deep breath, and take in the moment. Daniella agreed at 43:42. She called living in a series of moments almost the end goal of everything.
Who is Daniella Hunter?
Daniella Hunter lives in Tulum, Mexico, where she and her husband built the wellness hotel Sanara. She founded The Real Coconut, a gluten, grain, and dairy free restaurant with another location in Malibu, California, and she wrote Nourish Yourself, Nurture Our World, a recipe book that also tells the story of how the restaurant began. Her website is daniellahunter.com.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Daniella does not ask anyone to overhaul their diet overnight. Her advice starts small, with one recognizable piece of real food a day, a few quiet moments, and bare feet on the ground. Still, she sees those small steps as the start of a deeper kind of care, one that reaches from what we put on our plates to how gently we treat ourselves.
How do I approach this today?
Today my practice focuses on helping people come off benzodiazepines and other medications gradually, and on medication for alcohol and opioid dependence. Physical dependence is not addiction, and the safest way off is usually slow.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (49 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:00] Daniella Hunter, welcome to the podcast.
Daniella Hunter [00:03] Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:07] So tell me about what you’re involved with food, as far as food being something that can be used in the healing process for, you know, possibly for mental health issues.
Daniella Hunter [00:24] A little bit of a background on where I came to how I came to be where I am now. I have a history of a healing journey myself, which was physical, but then dealt with some sort of darker periods of my life. Eventually, that led me to be in Tulum. So the last nine or 10 years, I’ve been living in Tulum, Mexico. And my husband and I built a wellness hotel here called Sanara, which actually the word Sanara means it will heal. So it’s a very interesting concept that we’ve been exploring. I don’t think we really understood the idea of that when we first started, but this inevitability of everything will be OK in the end has really sort of fed through everything that we’ve done. And then because of having a hotel we built a small restaurant which I believed at the time was going to just be for our guests but has turned into a concept which has become a phenomenon very much welcomed by a lot of people across the world it’s called the real coconut but the premise was that I wanted to use gluten grain and dairy free food no refined sugars championing a lot of low impact and hero crops that were sustainable for our planet. The result of that was that people have felt that the food is incredibly healthful and have appreciated the concept so much that it has taken me on a further journey of understanding really how food can heal. Along the way as it relates to mental health and overall well-being what I noticed was that I’ve been meeting a lot of people over the years that have been referencing nutrition as something that has been very much undervalued in care and in any sense in traditional medicine but very specifically in mental health care so for example I’ve met somebody fairly recently who’s a very well respected eminent psychiatrist in Greece who has a very large center there she now calls herself actually a nutritional I think psychologist sorry a nutritional psychologist because she says that she cannot address issues around mental health without addressing nutrition at the same time so it’s coming a lot more prevalent to see how that recognition of how food can actually be used in that journey and our relationship with food also plays a big part into that
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:05] Yeah and that makes sense and but it’s true that nutrition and food are really put on the back burner when it comes to health mental health care especially and, you know, in my industry, in the addiction treatment, when people go to rehab, they often get terrible nutrition. You know, they get a lot of carbs. There’s not really a lot of thought put into a menu or healthy eating. And, you know, from other people I’ve talked to that are in that industry as far as with supplements, you know, bringing supplements to the rehabs and offering them programs to at least give them supplementation to help them replenish important neurotransmitters and other nutrients. Rehabs have been resistant to that. They’re not really interested in helping their patients with nutrition.
Daniella Hunter [03:54] Yeah we know of quite a few centers in we have another restaurant location in malibu in california and we know of many addiction treatment centers there where people will come to us and actually say wow you know I’m I’ve been there but the food has been you know white bread and a lot of sugar and so there’s no and these are places where people are paying a lot of money to be into them so it’s interesting how it hasn’t been addressed but I do feel like we’re getting to a point where it needs to be addressed but also it’s the world is a lot more open to concepts of food and we cannot also ignore the fact that food in itself has so many addictive properties in the way we relate to it so if you’re dealing with someone with severe addiction the like you said the carbs the sugar even smoking they’re maybe more socially social forms of addiction socially acceptable forms of addiction which we still need to address because our relationship with food at its core is very much reflective of our relationship with everything because food is something we can’t get away from relating to on a daily basis.
Dr. Mark Leeds [05:19] Yeah, people, I think people don’t really want to think about food, you know, they, I mean, there’s people that like to cook, but the people just want to kind of take care for them. You know, the world’s a busy place, you know, we’re all doing all kinds of different things. And, you know, definitely nobody wants to grow their own food anymore. But people really, a lot of people don’t even want to think about preparing a meal or cooking. And it’s you know and then we’re kind of at the mercy of like these big companies that advertise and you know convince us to eat all these unhealthy addictive foods you know and just recently you know they just shut down the purdue the company that was making oxycontin the highly addictive pain medication you know for lying to the public telling everyone it’s not that addicting and we still have a whole bunch of companies out there selling cigarettes selling sugar, selling sugar to children and, you know, and advertising it as being healthy. You know, cereals have vitamins and minerals in them, you know, that they add to it just so they can advertise that, but they’re filled with addictive sugar and kids are, you know, the parents think that it’s healthy for them. So yeah, I mean, we’re, there’s like a lot of pressure to eat unhealthy foods and get hooked on unhealthy foods. And I know that when I see a recipe book right away like I don’t even want to look at it because just the thought of like looking at a recipe and following it and having to get the ingredients measure them put them together right you know it does seem like a lot of work
Daniella Hunter [06:44] Yeah that I totally understand that and I and I agree that most people are not set up to probably want to do that or be even in a you know a good living situation or time frames to have to be able to dedicate to cooking and preparing more complex recipes however there are lots of things that we can gift to people in their connection with food how they how they choose their food how they prepare it because food can be incredibly simple and nutritious when you break it down you don’t have to create very complicated recipes and menus and it’s also very much about how we approach the meals that we’re eating because I think that we’ve also taken such a step back from, in our society, like you said, everything is so such convenience based that we forget to honour the food and where it came from. So we’re noticing a lot more in the food business that there are a lot of small farms that are coming forward, there are a lot of growers, farm shops, so it may not be always financially accessible but if you can go and you know actually start to recognize a living piece of food or something that has come from the earth or that’s come from a tree then and start to connect to that and maybe add that onto your plate or even just once a day have something that is you know recognizable as a piece of food that I think those type of things we can start to add that back into our daily life and we become more connected to nature, which ultimately is a very healing tool that we can use anyway.
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:32] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What do you think about eating animals or animal products? Is that part of like, do you not use like, is your restaurant a vegan restaurant?
Daniella Hunter [08:43] It’s not. My philosophy is plant-focused eating, which really means that, you know, I feel that just sustainably for ourselves, for our health and for the planet, what’s available for everybody should be mostly based around plants. And then if you need it, add in some animal protein. But my biggest aspect that I promote on that is that the quality is the most important. So if you’re in a choice of having some very badly produced factory farmed animal protein or not having it or only having it once a week, then I would always go for the quality because you’re not only just sustaining this terrible industry of mass production of animal protein, but you’re also not doing yourself any favor nutritionally, probably ingesting things that are full of antibiotics and hormones and all sorts of other disruptors. That are going to continue to additionally mess with your system. So for me, it’s not about totally removing it’s just about being very careful and, again, honoring it’s honoring that process. Where did it come from? How was it produced? Can you recognize the form that it’s being produced in? If you’re going to choose something that’s highly processed, then you may as well not choose the thing with the meat.
Dr. Mark Leeds [10:04] Yeah. Do you think when people go to the grocery store and they’re trying to eat healthy and they want to eat fruits and vegetables and make salads. Do you think it’s important to go for the organic foods? Because I’ve heard arguments that organic foods might be grown with pesticides that are more toxic than the conventional food. So I’m not really sure what to pick. You know, sometimes I pick organic and sometimes I don’t.
Daniella Hunter [10:27] I mean, I think the U.S. Is complicated anyway. And globally you know we’re having like for example I read years ago that you could eat non-organic fruits and vegetables for in mexico that would have more nutrition than organic fruits and vegetables from the u.s just because of the soil depletion there but I would definitely say that I mean I know because some of our products that we have are certified organic and that the regulations around that are incredibly strict. So for example, I would suggest choosing organic if you can and actually lessening the amount that you’re buying but choose better quality again. That’s always my mantra. But there are certain types of fruits and vegetables that you can choose that are non-organic that are less toxic than the ones that, like for example, if you were gonna buy strawberries you should always buy organic because the pesticides and the non-organic version are very strong and they’re very toxic so there’s a list on always available online from the environmental working group which has what’s called the dirty dozen and the clean 15 and so they’ll give you a list of the dozen the 12 foods that 12 fruits and vegetables that you should always buy organic and then they’ll give you the list of about 15 other products that you can get away with buying non-organic because it doesn’t absorb so much into the into the crop itself
Dr. Mark Leeds [12:01] Okay and what do you think about do you think it’s important to avoid genetically modified I guess gmos genetically modified organisms or you know things that are gmo or non-gmo I’ve heard in europe they don’t even allow gmo I don’t know if that’s true but of course here you have to always look for the label is that anything important to look for
Daniella Hunter [12:23] I yes I would definitely and a lot of that relates to the glyphosates and the ways way in which things are grown which again are depleting the soil but also depleting our microbiomes and you know just to say way onto a slightly different aspect here the microbiome and mental health and the way the brain function is incredibly as powerfully linked and so we forget about the fact that our gut and what we’re eating and how our gut is functioning can actually affect our overall well-being and our mental health so I would totally avoid actually more gmo than than non-organic
Dr. Mark Leeds [13:08] Okay so that’s so that’s a more important even more importantly than worrying about organic versus conventional is stay away from the GMO and look for the non-GMO.
Daniella Hunter [13:18] Yeah, in an ideal world, we would be eating, you know, from our gardens or from a local farm and knowing exactly how things are growing. But that’s not the case in, you know, for the majority of our world. So yes, it’s better to just as much as you can choose the most natural version of whatever it is that you are getting yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [13:41] Yeah that’d be great if we could all grow our own food we have a mango and a coconut tree in the backyard and we can’t even get the mangoes because the birds eat them before we can get to them
Daniella Hunter [13:50] Not easy well florida you’re lucky because you can actually grow a bunch of things but yeah most people it’s tough there are more and more programs that are using like urban farming techniques using hydroponics putting containers into parking lots outside of a supermarket or in big buildings. And so people can actually start to get access in urban cities to fresh fruit and vegetables.
Dr. Mark Leeds [14:19] Oh, wow. Oh, that’s, that’s really interesting. Yeah. I’m sure there’s ways […]
Daniella Hunter [14:31] And it’s really healing. I mean, touching, like I was referring to earlier that being in nature and touching food and touching and being in contact with anything living is incredibly healing so even again if you’re stuck in a in a city plants and being able to connect with them even on the smallest and most minimal level are actually benefit is still beneficial so if you can grow anything in your house that’s amazing just for the process of looking after something and seeing it grow and then being able to potentially enjoy the whatever it is that you can grow from it and eat it
Dr. Mark Leeds [15:11] So where in where in mexico are you located like what I’m not really familiar with that city like what is it close to
Daniella Hunter [15:21] So Tulum is south of cancun which was obviously the big popular destination that’s been around for the last 40 50 years and then Tulum is further south so it’s developing quite rapidly and it has done over the years it’s a very popular destination now but it’s still very much in nature it’s the beaches is incredible and stunning so I’m fortunate that if I you know look out my out of my window I’m seeing greenery I’m seeing plants I can get out into nature. And then the Yucatan, this whole peninsula that we live on, is an incredibly beautiful and historic area of Mexico. So the Mayans were from this area. So we have a lot of Mayan villages and communities. And there’s also a lot of growing out in those areas.
Dr. Mark Leeds [16:17] Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now I’m looking at it. I’m looking on the map. […] And then recently we took a trip there on a cruise and I think we went to Cozumel, which was, which was interesting, but I know that area, that region, I think that there’s, there’s these clinics that people go to that, you know, like for addiction and they put them on this, on Ibogaine therapy, which is, you know, psychedelic which is I think also not very safe you know it has some cardiac risk but I don’t know if that’s something that you there’s in your area or something that you’re involved with in any way at all
Daniella Hunter [17:17] It’s interesting somebody actually when we first opened our hotel somebody approached us to offer that therapy but because we’re on the beach road and because we’re a little further away and possible risks that were involved in it we stayed away from it we I know there’s a lot of work that happens in the area we stay totally clean in our in our offering everything is we our container is totally I mean we sorry we do have a bit a bar with alcohol but it’s a very minimal aspect of what we do but from a from a sort of wellness perspective of what we offer we keep it totally avoiding any form of substance we don’t promote that we don’t use it and our philosophy of healing is very much step by step and going within so it’s a philosophy that’s developing further and we’re actually looking to open additional spaces that are a little bit more expansive and quieter away from the bustle so that we can take people on a deeper journey
Dr. Mark Leeds [18:28] Okay yeah so if someone were to come visit is it like very would they feel very connected with nature there like as far as like you know gardens or you know wooded areas and I’m sure you’re right by the ocean like what how what’s that experience like
Daniella Hunter [18:43] The ocean I feel like the ocean is an incredibly healing aspect of what we have on offer at our particular location on the beach here and it is the key aspect obviously why people came to Tulum and why they why they developed the area so that’s that’s a big aspect it has become you know Tulum is a complicated place because it’s has the dark and the light and so with the growth has become a lot of partying and you know along with the partying comes a lot of drugs so it’s again we stay totally out of that but there are areas where that there are you know big parties big festivals and without question there are a lot of drugs around that so it’s a it’s a funny mix of the place because it’s it sort of covers both the light very very much healing side of things and then has its dark aspects also but it’s really for me it feels like a reflection of our world it’s a it’s a microcosm of our the bigger picture of our world it’s just concentrated into a small space here
Dr. Mark Leeds [19:54] Oh so somebody was looking to get away from everything like say that having a lot of anxiety and, you know, maybe burnout, you know, I mean, just for example, say, you know, cause that’s the big thing now, doctors who are burning out with maybe treating COVID patients and, you know, under a lot of stress at their job, you know, or anybody in that situation, you know, a lot of people under stress and dealing with issues maybe of addiction or anxiety, depression, cause someone comes to stay there for like, you know, just for example, for a week and, you know, get their, their eating back, you know, eating healthy again and getting proper nutrition, and learning how to eat and experiencing the relaxing life on the beach and everything?
Daniella Hunter [20:34] Yeah, we have a program called Nourish and Heal, which is actually an immersive program. So you come and stay, you eat all your meals with us. So you’ll be literally, and I’ve found a lot of people have had quite a lot of breakthroughs with that. You’re eating totally gluten, grain and dairy free, but it’s not restrictive. So everything on our menu that’s been curated so that it’s already healthful you can take it to us to a slightly deeper level if you want but if someone has not explored that journey was not already on that type of a diet they’ll immediately feel better and they can then add various different things onto it I’m a big fan of what a supplement or it’s a whole food called marine phytoplankton and we’ve had that for many years on our menu so we have a phyto cleanse program where you add the marine phytoplankton three times a day into your your your sort of daily overall diet and the amount of nutrients and minerals and vitamins you’re getting from that gives you an immediate boost so that’s that’s a bonus and then we have a wellness center where you’re going into every day to have various treatments we have an ayurvedic focus incredible therapists and practitioners there we have a lot of sound healing yoga on in a beautiful shower on the beach so it’s a very much an immersive experience where you come into our container and you can feel cared for and you don’t have to worry about anything and then we give a guidance over how to approach various things so how to approach sleeping how to approach actually eating you know how are you connecting with your food how are you moving through your day how are you how are you even moving how are you exercising so actually getting people to connect more with themselves during that time
Dr. Mark Leeds [22:26] Okay yes that’s a lot of great stuff going on I mean yoga is that I guess you people can learn how to free up like stored stress energy in their bodies and I’ve seen sound therapy before like I went to a place where they did sound therapy and they were talking about how it frees up energy blockages and chakras in the body so that sounds like a lot of great stuff for healing I mean I can imagine someone might even go to your place instead of going to like a rehab facility, you know, like you go to rehab and they kind of rehash the same old 12 step stuff and talk therapy, group therapy. And, you know, there’s not a lot of healing, you know, maybe a lot of like, you know, feeling like you’re being punished and having people point their fingers at you saying, you know, you need to stop doing all this, but, you know, maybe going, you know, that you might be like a great alternative to rehab.
Daniella Hunter [23:21] That’s what we’re also looking for in our next location which is to be able to take people away from things but give them all of these tools and more to be able to go and come through a deep healing experience and even adding in aspects of service and working within you know like you said working within a garden or caring for animals because taking ourselves out of our own story of whatever it is that we’re hanging on to and actually getting our hands dirty or caring for something else can often take us away from that sitting in the mire and sitting in the depths of despair.
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:07] Yeah yeah that sounds great yeah being around animals is also great I mean a lot of people especially on the west coast a lot of places are doing goat therapy you know
Daniella Hunter [24:17] Yeah animal therapy there’s a thing called goat yoga as well where the goats actually stand on you when you’re doing yoga
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:26] Oh yeah yeah the goat yoga look I saw that on tv that looked kind of ridiculous although I guess it’s still fun but you can but there’s even doctors like in I think oregon where they have like goats where you can just go play with the goats and that’s like therapeutic just to be around and playing with them
Daniella Hunter [24:40] Yeah yeah animals are great mirrors for us and also can bring a lot of peace and caring for them I think it’s the important aspect is actually being able to have that gentleness come out of us where we have to take care of something that’s more vulnerable than ourselves yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:01] Isn’t I didn’t know this until recently I was looking it up and you’re pretty much that area is pretty much where the that meteor that killed all the dinosaurs pretty much fell right where you guys are
Daniella Hunter [25:14] I know interesting isn’t it yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:17] You’re like right on top of the crater
Daniella Hunter [25:18] Yeah just north of just north of here or sort of to more towards merida but yes it is interesting so you have to wonder what kind of energy in you know came from that big impact and how that affected but clearly the Mayans were an incredible civilization. And we still see a lot of aspects of that now. And we see the work ethic of the Mayans here. And we see the beautiful people in the villages. So it’s a very interesting historical and cultural area.
Dr. Mark Leeds [25:55] Yeah. And now you said you’re not involved with, as far as I’d mentioned, what was it? The Ibogandaria. I think people also go there for that. I don’t know if it’s that same area, but people go to meet with, what do they call them? Not gurus, but the shamans. Yeah, the shamans. And sometimes they do the ayahuasca therapy or sometimes they just meet with a shaman.
Daniella Hunter [26:19] Again, we’ve stayed very much away from it. I have never done a plant medicine journey myself. I have witnessed its explosion here you know it’s come from being something that was only available in the jungles with shamans that were willing to share it with people who they felt were ready for it to something that you do you can now drive down the road here and you’ll see a sign with a list of you know call 1-800-something-something and it’s not as bad of that but and your list is you know your menu is ayahuasca, bufo, psilocybin, whatever else they want to add onto the list and yes people are coming for those journeys. Now I question how effective they can be because I have I’ve seen people become addicted to the experience of it so they may have a very powerful and profound experience and they may afterwards feel like they want to get back to that sensation which is not much different than a sort of typical addiction also people may especially if they have any sort of mental health issues underlying it can be quite impactful and actually detrimental I think for people who are not ready to experience it hence why we’ve just totally stayed away from it my theory and philosophy is very much that we have to take the steps we have to be ready as we grow to sort of match our own conscious and spiritual evolution to be able to be able to benefit from it as we grow so if you try to step ahead and you try to sort of jump to the top to the head of the queue and get your powerful experience and you’re not ready for it can have you know potential effects that maybe can be long lasting or short lasting but there are times where people have had a very heavy experience let’s say through one of these plant medicine journeys and also So, again, I don’t want to judge this, but the number of people that are now claiming to be shamans is probably doesn’t correlate to the number of true shamans that would have been actually, you know, deemed worthy of doing these journeys in the past.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:59] Yeah, that makes sense. And I’m sure there’s no one certifying shamans either. So and now looking at the I’m looking at the map now and you’re you know, it seems, you know, thinking about it like, well, Mexico and Yucatan Peninsula is so far away, but it really isn’t. I mean, it’s like it looks like it’d be you’re closer to where I am. And if I were to go visit […] a friend in California, I mean, you’re not that far away, really, from you.
Daniella Hunter [29:24] You’re an hour and a half away in Florida, Los Angeles. I go backwards and forwards quite a lot to Los Angeles. That’s four to four and a half hours away. And, you know, anywhere somewhere like Dallas is about three hours away. So two, two and a half to three hours. So it’s a very easy trip in and Cancun is one of the biggest hubs to the Latin America. So you’ve got flights, direct flights from almost every major city in the US.
Dr. Mark Leeds [29:54] And for people that don’t speak Spanish, is it pretty easy to get by there if you only speak English
Daniella Hunter [29:59] Yeah totally totally fine oh well it’s a very it’s a very westernized area now it’s very comfortable on the one hand and you know we have access to everything we could possibly need here including for many years now actually I lived here 20 years ago and there was even at that point a Costco in Cancun but there was there’s everything you could need but also there’s that access to nature and feeling like you can you know not only go to the beach but there are also these wonderful cenotes which are freshwater pools it’s what you said about the crater the meteor hitting the yucatan peninsula yucatan is limestone base so it’s very porous and during the ice age the ice expanded and created all these underground rivers and so there are certain areas where the roof of the river or the roof of the cave has fallen in and you can actually go and swim in fresh water there and there’s absolutely stunning there’s various different rock formations and stalagmites and stalactites and different ones and they’re very beautiful powerful places to go and experience being in
Dr. Mark Leeds [31:16] Oh well that’s incredible I mean, I think if you’re trying to convince people to move there, you probably have them at Costco. I think a lot of people would just be happy to live by a Costco.
Daniella Hunter [31:28] Funnily enough, a lot of people have moved here post-COVID. So a lot of people decided there was already quite a bit of an exodus coming from the U.S. To here and other parts of the world to here. But now even more so because it is a very beautiful place to come and face yourself. And now most people or lots of people are working digitally. So they can really base themselves with it wherever they like.
Dr. Mark Leeds [31:54] Yeah, definitely. Oh, that’s true. I mean, that’s something that kind of hit me suddenly with COVID that now I’m doing all my work remotely and it wouldn’t really matter where I was in the world.
Daniella Hunter [32:04] Have you found that when you’re working remotely, it makes it more complicated for you to be able to connect with your patients?
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:15] Not really. I think that because I’m mostly treating addiction, it’s really, it works really well. It really lends itself to being, you know, very, it works very well over. In fact, I think in some ways it works better over a video connection. You know, I tend to be able to talk to my patients longer. I schedule visits for at least an hour. And often, you know, a lot of patients will spend a whole hour or more talking. And sometimes I get some insight into a patient’s living conditions because they’re in their house and I see what’s going on. You know, sometimes in the background, they walk through the house and, you know, the kids are screaming and their spouse doesn’t do anything to help. And, you know, it’s a whole different way of seeing a patient than having them come into the office and being, having patients scheduled every 15 minutes and having to rush in and out of a room. So yeah, even the, so you don’t have the physical exam, although treating addiction, And I mean, a person still needs to see a primary care doctor and get a physical exam periodically. But, you know, for the part that I’m doing, it lends itself very well to remote treatment. And there’s a lot of companies getting into that industry now of doing remote treatment of addiction and making it more accessible to people that might not be able to get to a doctor very easily.
Daniella Hunter [33:32] Wow, that’s that’s fascinating. Wouldn’t have known that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [33:36] So yeah so it’s you know it’s worked out so far pretty well so now suppose that someone were in this situation that you know they’re trying to overcome a drug addiction and you know they’re living this kind of life of you know they’re not connecting with nature and they’re just it’s kind of in a survival mode you know maybe they’re even still going to work and taking care of a family but they’re just obsessed with getting their next drug and they want to quit and they’re probably eating all these frozen meals because there’s no time to cook and you know piling up the shopping cart with hot pockets or whatever and you know they listen to this podcast like what and of course there’s things they can do for their drug addiction medically but what would you recommend from your perspective that something they could do right away to make things better
Daniella Hunter [34:20] So what you said was interesting they want to so they want to get out of it so that’s that’s a you know there’s a driving factor there which is key and then it’s about how does how to support the facilitation of that so I my sense is that the first thing to do is to try to find moments to stop and just be quiet and in those moments whether it’s you know in the home even if it’s in a stressful situation home situation whether it’s you know sitting on the toilet or in the bathroom shutting yourself in the bathroom or and just being quiet or being able to find a small patch of grass or a tree or something and just going to sit by it and having that moment to take a breath I think that without question that’s number one then starting to look at things like okay so they go to the supermarket like like I said earlier if they can just you know they know that they have to feed the family they know they have to make food quickly so the hot pockets and all the things are not going to go away there might be a budget that’s involved there that they also need to fit into but if they can maybe go past the fruit and vegetable aisle and actually start to look at those things and say okay well what looks good? What feels good? What would I feel like I want to eat? What would I want to taste? And start to just tap into any of these things that give us a sense of connection. I have my book, which is a recipe book. So it’s at the moment, it’s not kind of going deeper like this. But the name of the title of the book is Nourish Yourself, Nurture Our World. But the philosophy behind that is actually it goes a lot deeper so when I say Nourish Yourself, Nurture Our World initially it’s like okay well how can I eat the best things that I can eat for you know to support my own health and my family’s health and have a less of an impact on our world that’s very simple I’m going to buy this I won’t buy you know factory farmed meat I’ll buy organic I’ll eat less of this you know the bad stuff but in a deeper sense if you look at nourishing you look at everything we do everything we take in so whether that’s social media whether that’s news television what we buy how we choose to react to interact with those things that is all part of our nourishment and the byproduct of that is what goes out what do we give out into our world what are we giving out to other people so how it affects us then then goes on to affect other people if you want to take it even deeper which are sort of esoteric level the nourishing yourself at the deepest deepest level is the deepest care for yourself and it’s sitting in that beingness and that stillness so that at that level that’s a direct connection with yourself with you want to say with God, or just in that present moment of being, how we get to that is a step-by-step journey. It’s a path. And so all of those things, whether it’s picking up a piece of fruit and feeling it, if it’s going and sitting on a piece of grass, if it’s taking a moment to just be quiet and have a breath, those are all things that add to that nourishment and start to allow yourself to understand how do I care for myself? How do, who is, you know, what is myself? And so it’s a long process, but it’s a path. And we all need to recognize that we are on that path and there’s no judgment as to where we’ve come from and there’s no expectation as to where we’re going to. But if we can try to use little tools that can help us along that path, that may be something that can support. Us.
Dr. Mark Leeds [38:25] Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. And I think I agree, you know, connecting with nature to whatever extent is possible is a good idea. You know, for those of us that are not too far from the ocean, you know, and sometimes even when you’re right across the street from the ocean, our office is actually like a short walk from the ocean. It’s not like you cross one road and then go take a path between the condos and you’re right there on the beach. And during the years like the five years we were in that office I might have walked over there twice I mean it’s and there’s people probably living in those buildings that is just a stairway or elevator ride down to the you know downstairs and they could walk right out on the beach and they still don’t go and you know people that could drive there in 15 20 minutes so you know for some reason we all like avoid it but you know just standing out in the in the sand and just watching the water come in especially sunrise or sunset you know is I think is a really great experience
Daniella Hunter [39:19] And if you can take your shoes off and stand barefoot on the ground that’s even better
Dr. Mark Leeds [39:26] Oh yeah yeah oh that was one thing that stood out when we were in Mexico that I really love that you guys have the I don’t know if it’s the same everywhere maybe it was just in Cozumel we stopped at a couple beaches while we drove around and I like how there’s like these crops of rock sticking out from the sand you know you can you know because where we are it’s like all just sand on the beach but there’s like all like all these great rock formations everywhere
Daniella Hunter [39:48] Yeah we that’s probably more Cozumel we don’t have that on the beach here in Tulum but the we’re very fortunate like I think mostly up in Florida also the sand is very white so you can actually stand on it but doesn’t get hot whereas the sand in California can can get very burning hot
Dr. Mark Leeds [40:08] Oh wow oh I didn’t know that oh actually yeah it wasn’t we did go to the beach in San Francisco but it was kind of a strange beach it was like really cold it’s like freezing like it wasn’t that cold right across the street but as soon as you get on the sand it was like freezing
Daniella Hunter [40:22] Oh it’s San Francisco’s like that yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [40:26] Yeah they have the microclimates where the weather is different from one place to another so anyway yeah so one thing I was I was reading I think I was looking at your website and there was something about how about walking softly and I wasn’t really sure what it meant but I was really curious about what that meant
Daniella Hunter [40:44] Again it’s about taking having awareness of our choices so when we are aware of those choices and we may make choices that we can judge to be bad or good but if we can my to me what it means when I walk softly is that is again that awareness of self because if I am connected with myself and honoring and not judging and not expecting then it becomes a very gentle path the walking along the path becomes gentle and as I do that my choices my reactions even the way I communicate with people the way something may affect me if something potentially doesn’t it’s a challenge that comes up it all becomes softer and more gentle and so there’s there’s a peace that comes with that and I know everybody knows that I was speaking to a friend last night and we were saying you know how do you how do we get she was about to teach a stress management course and you know how do you take someone who’s so wound up and so stressed and give them the tools that you know maybe would stop them punching a wall if they got really frustrated or you know doing something detrimental and I said to her you know I actually think we all have that innate feeling and sense of what true peace is we don’t we just don’t give ourselves the time to connect with it and to appreciate it and even recognize it so there are moments where suddenly you might get hit with this wow there was this peace in that moment and it could be in the most unexpected place it could be in the supermarket it could or you know sometimes we go look for things we go okay I must go stand on the beach because I need to connect or I need to de-stress or I need to get to know myself better but actually there are these moments of peace and calm that are innate and we just need to tap back into them so we have everything already there we just layered it with so much stuff around us and the noise of our world and our life and our stories that it’s very difficult for us to tap back into that peace.
Dr. Mark Leeds [43:16] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, people like, you know, a person could be caught up in, you know, stressed and thinking about all the stuff they need to do, and all the things they’ve done wrong, and beating themselves up, and, you know, they could just stop right where they are, and take a deep breath, and kind of take in, you know, what’s around them, and, you know, and, you know, really, there’s nothing, you know, nothing but, I guess, like, the moment where you are right now.
Daniella Hunter [43:42] Exactly, yeah. And that’s the beauty. That’s almost the end goal of everything is being able to be in a series of moments as opposed to holding on to an experience of the past or fearing a repetition of something in the future or an expectation of something. So I feel like we all totally have that. And that peace is available for us. So the idea of how do you get to that is more about how do we remember it and how do we peel away a lot of the stuff that we clutter our lives with.
Dr. Mark Leeds [44:25] Yeah. So if somebody wanted to connect with you, they could visit your website, they could look up your book. Is your book on Amazon?
Daniella Hunter [44:34] On interesting me I just took it off amazon because it’s available on through my website because it’s complicated to ship through there and you get into trouble if you don’t ship it within two days and things so I chose to take it off there that my book is very much a story of how the real coconut started and how my process of getting to that started and it has a lot of recipes in it so yes they could they can go on to my website daniellahunter.com and find a link to get the book there otherwise yes they can connect directly and there are links out from my website to Sanara to the real coconut kitchen there are various ways that we can connect with people from being able to get you know food to them if they’re in for example anywhere in california or we send food to programs that we have to even some online things that we’re doing through Sanara now where we’re offering for example sound healings where you can just log into and be able to participate without actually having to physically be here.
Dr. Mark Leeds [45:44] Okay so the best place to get started would be for someone to visit your website and they can see all the different things going on. I mean if someone wanted to go to your restaurant that’s they can do that also right or just yeah yeah
Daniella Hunter [45:58] They can totally if they happen to be in the area they can totally come to visit us on the beach in Tulum and if they’re in Malibu or in Los Angeles and they want to come out to Malibu where we have a space out there we also ship food across the country so there are various different ways if you if there’s any interest to connect and go deeper and even to go on a deeper journey with us so you know to be able to we have a like an online community and put messaging out to people so there’s a they can sign up on for newsletters
Dr. Mark Leeds [46:35] Oh that’s great yeah online communities are great where you can people can communicate with you and with other people that are like-minded on the same kind of journey. So that’s great. And so you said you ship food. So you can actually ship the food that you make in the restaurant or what kind of food is it that you can ship to people?
Daniella Hunter [46:57] Yeah, we have a lot of what we would call market staples. So, for example, we make cereal. We have some frozen meals. We have cookies all sorts of things that we can that we can send from the restaurant oh yeah so if people go to real real coconut kitchen.com they can have a look at the menu and then they can then they link out to the conscious market then there’s a there are a lot of things that are available there
Dr. Mark Leeds [47:29] Okay yeah I’m looking at that oh yeah real coconut kitchen.com oh yeah okay there you are and there’s all the different locations okay so there’s people should visit two websites they should go to daniella it’s daniella with an a at the end of your first name daniellahunter.com and then the other one is real coconut kitchen.com I’ll put both links in the show notes so people can find them.
Daniella Hunter [47:59] Thank you. Yeah. And any questions, you know, we’re always happy to support anyone, anything that’s been brought up to go deeper on it. And like I said, we do have an online community. That’s mainly through Sanara, but I’ll put that on my website as well so that people can access it.
Dr. Mark Leeds [48:19] Okay. Yeah, this is a really beautiful website and there’s a lot of stuff here to look at. Oh wow yeah I definitely recommend people go to both of these sites but this real coconut kitchen.com has a lot of great stuff okay yeah Daniella Hunter thank you thank you again for joining me
Daniella Hunter [48:37] Thank you so much Mark it was a real pleasure to chat and I hope we get to connect further and that you get to come visit some point as well
