Why is it so hard for couples to talk about pleasure?
In October 2018, I spoke with Jennifer Elizabeth Masters for the second time. She is a coach and the author of Orgasm for Life, a book about sexuality, communication, and intimacy between partners. As I said at the start of the show, the conversation contains adult subject matter.
This is an archive episode, recorded when the show covered addiction and recovery broadly. We talked about why many women never say what they need, why touch matters outside the bedroom, how old resentment shuts people down, and, near the end, where substance use and relationships meet.
Why do so many women stay quiet about what they need?
At 1:12, Jennifer said men are usually good at explaining what they like, while many women have been trained to keep quiet about what they desire. In her view, the bigger problem is that many women do not know what they need themselves.
She compared a woman’s arousal to a cold start, like a car on a freezing winter morning. It can take a long time, and that is normal. Unfortunately, she said, some psychiatrists once described women as broken for exactly that reason.
Do doctors learn much about sexual function?
At 3:47, I admitted I was almost certain that the words female orgasm were never said in any lecture during my four years of medical school. The part of first-year anatomy that covered sexual function was very short. In general, I said, doctors do not really know what to tell people.
From 4:26, Jennifer described a urology resident who examined women in a laboratory and concluded that the G-spot did not exist because he could not find it. In her view, it is hard for anyone to become aroused while being examined in a lab, and anything else on a woman’s mind gets in the way.
She also told the story of a family friend who was married for decades and never once experienced an orgasm. At 7:02, I said most men would find that hard to even conceive.
Why do some couples stop being intimate?
At 7:06, Jennifer said this is why many women decide after menopause that they are done with sex. She knows many men who have lived in sexless marriages for years. In her view, the responsibility is shared and calls for compassion, yet a woman also has to take charge of her own body and know what she needs.
At 8:23, she asked why a pill for men’s sexual function had been around for so long while women’s pleasure received so little attention. That gap is the reason she wrote the book. In her experience, the more partners talk about what they want and like, the better both their sex life and their daily relationship become.
Is sex the foundation of a relationship?
At 9:38, I said I had never thought of sex as the primary reason for a relationship. Jennifer agreed at 10:00. Sex is not the foundation, she said, but it is the glue that carries a couple through the hard times.
When couples stop having sex, in her experience, they stop touching, and some end up sleeping in separate beds. Her advice was simple. Go to bed together, do not go to bed angry, and at least squeeze each other’s hand or share a hug.
She also suggested warming up during the day, with a kind text, a compliment, or a rose on the pillow. In fact, she believes women are turned on in the mind first, so appreciation matters more than people realize.
What kind of compliment means the most?
At 14:48, I passed on something I had heard. The best compliment praises a decision or something a person has done, such as planning a great vacation, rather than a feature of their appearance they have no control over.
Jennifer agreed at 15:33. Praise for an accomplishment, she said, goes to the core of who we are. She then turned to the automatic no. In her view, when a partner says no out of habit, it is worth asking where that no comes from, and whether some part of us is refusing to receive pleasure.
How can a couple let go of old resentment?
At 17:45, I compared this to the daily inventory used in 12-step programs and wondered whether a person could keep a private relationship inventory. Did I say the wrong thing today, or did I do the right things?
From 18:26, Jennifer offered a different question. Was I in my head or in my heart? She described the difference between reacting and responding. Holding on to resentment, she said, hurts the relationship and hurts us too, because it drags the past into the present.
At 20:20, I recalled an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where the wife pretended to be over a fight just for one night. Jennifer called the show very realistic. Sometimes, she said, we lie to our partner, and sometimes we lie to ourselves.
What does it mean to grow together?
At 20:48, Jennifer said a relationship today only works when both people are committed to growing. Often, in her view, it is a hurt child who shows up in an argument, and the wound comes from childhood, not from the present moment.
At 23:15, she asked listeners to compare a morning after a loving evening with a morning after going to bed angry. Which day goes better at work? So, her advice was to be honest without being mean. She described arriving at dinner in tears over a worry about her daughter, and how her date’s simple suggestion helped them both.
At 26:38, I said I think parents should always be willing to take their children back home. Jennifer pointed out that adult children moving home was becoming more common, given low pay after college and the high cost of living.
Where do substance use and relationships meet?
At 29:34, I said that most of the patients who came to my practice were in relationships, many of them married with children. In a lot of cases, a husband or wife brought their spouse in, hoping to save both the person and the marriage.
From 29:59, Jennifer described how one compulsive habit can replace another, from alcohol or opioids to shopping, sugar, or sex. In her view, people reach for these things because of pain. The way forward, she said, is to accept ourselves lovingly instead of carrying shame and guilt for past choices.
At 31:47, I asked what women in recovery can do when most support groups are made up of men. Jennifer said at 32:27 that she recovered without a 12-step program, and that therapy did not work for her. Instead, she relied on reading, self-reflection, meditation, and daily commitment to herself.
At 34:52, I agreed that there are many different paths. I noted that doctors who treat opioid dependence are expected to provide medical care and also refer the person to therapy, and therapy can take many forms. At 35:43, Jennifer said partners need support too, and that she had been on both sides, as her son had struggled with substance use as well.
Who is Jennifer Elizabeth Masters?
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters is a coach who helps people with their relationships and the author of Orgasm for Life. This was her second appearance on the show. Her work is at jenniferelizabethmasters.com.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Intimacy rarely fades because of one big event. Yet, it often fades through small silences, missed touches, and resentments that never get talked through. Still, in Jennifer’s view, honest conversation, appreciation, and self-acceptance can bring a couple back toward each other, whatever else they are facing.
How do I approach this today?
Today my practice focuses on helping people come off benzodiazepines and other medications gradually, and on medication for alcohol and opioid dependence. Physical dependence is not addiction, and the safest way off is usually slow.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (38 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:09] Welcome to The Rehab on the Mental Health News Radio Network. I am Dr. Mark Leeds and I will be your host. Join me in exploring the world of addiction treatment. How can we improve the ways that we help individuals to overcome addiction? The goal of treatment is to save lives and help people to get back on track to a path towards success and happiness in life. The following interview with Jennifer Masters contains adult subject matter. If you are listening to this podcast with children in the room, or if you are in an environment where adult subject matter may not be appropriate, I recommend stopping playback now. Thank you for listening. Welcome to the program, Jennifer.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [01:02] Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Leeds. I’m so happy to be here.
Dr. Mark Leeds [01:05] Today I wanted to talk to you about your book, Orgasm for Life, which you completed that in 2014.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [01:12] Yes. It’s hard to believe it’s been out four years already. Yes. I have to say this book, if you would like to know more about yourself or about your partner, it’s a really fun read. And you’ll find that it’s extremely authentic. It is helpful. It’s intelligently written, and it’s also humorous. So it’s just a powerful book. So what does it do? It helps men understand women better and women understand men better, but moreover, it helps us understand ourselves better, and we all need to know more about ourselves. And I would say there are a lot of women out there, and I hear men telling me all the time. Men will say, do this to me because I like it. Men are very adept at explaining what it is they like. You know, even the first time around where women may be with a man for years and never tell them, this is what I like. This is what I need. Because women have been trained to put a muzzle on it and not speak about what it is that they desire. And that’s been a longstanding double standard, unfortunately. The bigger issue for women is that women often don’t know what they need for themselves. We’re under the misimpression that if we don’t have an orgasm within five minutes, there’s something wrong with us, where men, they’re just wired differently. And men can have an orgasm in two minutes. Now, is that possible for a woman? Yes, but I would say it’s rare. And that would have to be manual stimulation of themselves rather than someone else for them. So women, start to finish, I would call it a cold start. Like you go out to your cold car in the morning and it’s 30 degrees outside. How long does it take to get a woman’s engine revved up to get her to the finish line? For some women, it could be 40 minutes. And that’s not uncommon. And so, you know, we’re under this misimpression that there’s something wrong with us. And even if you look at what’s been written about the female orgasm, there were psychiatrists that were saying that women were broken if they couldn’t have an orgasm within a certain amount of time, that there was something inherently wrong with them. And it’s physiologically impossible for some women to get there in less than 40 minutes.
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:47] I’m almost certain that in four years of medical school that in any of the lectures that I went to, I’m almost certain that the words female orgasm were never said. In fact, I remember my first year anatomy, I was kind of looking forward to whatever lecture we’d get to finally talking about human reproductive organs in general and sexual functioning and how things are structured and how they work. And I think that part of whatever lecture it was in, you know, maybe lasted five minutes or less. I think you could have completely missed the entire lecture on sex in the first year anatomy class. So it pretty much is not covered in medical school and I think in general, doctors don’t really know what to tell people.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [04:26] So the fact that you have mentioned this, it’s a powerful, it’s a really powerful statement. I’d like to share something with you. There was a doctor, he’s a urologist, and he was in residency. So he’s in residency, and I think it was one of his final theses or something like this. So he was doing tests on women to discover whether there was, in fact, a G-spot. And, you know, I’m just going to back up a little bit. So what is the G-spot? Well, the G-spot is a little area that is inside the upper wall of the vagina. So if a woman is laying on her back, it would be just slightly about an inch and a half above the clitoris or clitoris. And the truth of it is, it is actually the root of the clitoris. So the G-spot is, it’s like the engine for the woman’s orgasm. And it is not even palpable or felt until a woman has been stimulated and aroused for at least 20 minutes. So this doctor said women do not have a G-spot because he couldn’t find it. So I want you to think about, you know, women were being poked and prodded in a laboratory environment. It’s pretty hard for a woman to get turned on when there are dogs barking, dishes in the sink, laundry to be done, the husband is annoying. I mean, all of these things play a part of a woman’s sexual environment. And if she has anything else on her mind, it’s going to interfere with her ability to be aroused. And so, but his final, the results of his experiment were there is no G spot because he didn’t find it. So I’m laughing because I know there is one and every woman has one. But the interesting thing is there are many women that never in their entire lives have an orgasm. My mother had a friend, she just passed away recently, and all her married life, and she was married for 50 years, she never experienced an orgasm. For the men in the audience, I want you to just breathe that in for a minute. Can you imagine being aroused and yet never having that experience of releasing or having that pleasure of having an orgasm? Can you imagine an entire lifetime?
Dr. Mark Leeds [07:02] I would say most men would probably say that’s not even conceivable.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [07:06] So that’s why, and this is really important, that is why so many women, once they hit menopause, they say, you know what, I’m done. I don’t want to do this anymore. And if you want to prevent that from happening, and I know many men that have been in sexless marriages for 20, 30, 40 years, no kidding, and they did not have affairs. So what happens is if the woman isn’t having an orgasm, isn’t experiencing pleasure, then whose fault is it? Is it hers? Is it his? Well, I say it’s kind of both because there needs to be compassion, right? But a woman has to take control of her own body and has to know what she needs. And unfortunately, our society has not helped with that because women’s orgasm hasn’t been important. And why do I say that? Well, think about it this way. How long has Viagra been around?
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:08] Yeah, a long time, at least mid-90s.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [08:10] Okay, so mid-90s and here we are. So how many years is that approximately?
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:16] Yeah, I’m going to say like about 97, so 20 years at least. Yeah, about 20 years or more.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [08:23] 20 years. Okay, so only recently, and this was one of my beefs in the book, is why has there been a pill for men so long and yet women’s orgasm wasn’t that important? If it were the other way around, if it was the men not having orgasms, a pill would have been created a long time ago to change it. Something would have been done. So there’s been this disparity between men and women and sexual pleasure. And so orgasm for life, the reason I wrote it is to close this gap for there to be greater understanding, but also communication. Because the more we can talk about what we want, what we like, what feels good, the more comfortable we can get with that, the better our sex becomes. Not only, and this is really powerful, not only does your sexual relationship become better, but your relationship day by day becomes better because you have a deeper connection and more intimacy with your partner. Ultimately, what is the goal in a relationship? What would you say, Dr. Leeds?
Dr. Mark Leeds [09:38] Well, the goal for people who just get into a relationship when they’re young, for children is just, I guess, to practice being in a relationship, and then for young adults to plan on possibly getting married or see if they’re compatible for marriage, and then when people get married to have children. But I never really thought of sex being the primary reason for a relationship.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [10:00] I’m not saying that it’s primary. What I’m saying is that a relationship without sex, that what tends to happen is when we’re not having sex with one another, we stop touching. And then we may end up sleeping in different beds. And that’s the demise of the relationship. So when you think about it this way, if you go to bed together every night and you promise to not go to bed angry and at least give each other’s hand a squeeze or a hug, we’re connecting on a physical level as opposed to broadening that gap. Sex is not the foundation of a relationship. Absolutely not. And when it is, a relationship isn’t going to last and be strong. But it is the glue that kind of carries you through the tough times. And it helps to break the barriers of non-communication because you can’t kiss someone and hold them and embrace them and be naked with them and still be angry. And I feel like the more skin-to-skin contact we can have, the happier we’ll be. And there’s even been a scientific study done. Do you remember way back when at World War II where the Germans were experimenting on babies and they had these babies in a sterile environment where all they did was feed them and change them? They had no loving touch and the babies died. They had all sorts of psychological damage, but they eventually died. They did not thrive. We need human touch to thrive. Our skin is our biggest organ and just having someone touch us. Babies, that skin-to-skin contact, babies love it’s so soothing. You know, if you want to soothe a baby and calm down their anxiety, the fastest way would be to hold them naked, hold them bare-chested to you so they feel that skin-to-skin contact. Well, we’re no different. We’re still in that same body. It is amazing the difference in the way we feel in our lives when we’re getting that touch. What I’ll tell you is we now have texting at our fingertips and we actually make love in our minds first. We are turned on in our minds first. Men, think about it. Men are visual. They like to see. You know, that’s why porn is so exciting and enticing for men because it’s visual. They get to see and watch and that stimulates men. Well, women, we are more mental. We are we get turned on in our brain so if you tell a woman wow you look so beautiful you know rather than hot you know it we really like to be told that we’re beautiful that we’re smart that we’re great mothers that you know our dinner was good paying compliments to women is definitely a great way to turn on our minds. But you can text here and there throughout the day about what you want to do. I can’t wait to kiss you all over. And then the next text, maybe in the next, you could start slowly building up to this. For people that have long-distance relationships, this could be really hot and very exciting. But even if you’re in the same city, you could do that with your wife. You know, you start slowly and, you know, a rose on the pillow. You get them thinking about the romance and how much I love you and I love what you do here for our family. I love how you take care of our children and paying each other compliments, being appreciative of one another. That is all part of a loving relationship and it’s forgotten today. You know, we are so disconnected and busy that, you know, we can’t go from no communication, no affection, and then at night when we get into bed together, you know, have somebody jump on us. We have to be kind of warmed up to the idea. So this is what I’m saying. Start in the morning and kissing and touching each other as we pass. You know, that’s the way that relationships will stay together is when there is that touch in between and not just at sex time.
Dr. Mark Leeds [14:48] I heard it said that the best kind of compliment is to compliment something that involved a woman’s decision or something they’ve done, you know, rather than something about their appearance that they may have no control over. Or rather than compliment a body part or whatever, you know, just, you know, you have great ankles or pretty face or whatever, you know, you know, nice shoes that you have there. You know, I love those red shoes or, you know, or you did a great job on that project today or, you know, what a great decision on that thing. You know, just something that involves, say your wife was planning a vacation and she picked out a really good place or got a great deal on something like, wow, that was great. Compliment something that involves something that they’ve done or a decision they’ve made, you know, rather than just something that’s there.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [15:33] I would agree. I mean, from personal experience, when I have been talking to a gentleman and he’s read my book and is telling me, wow, you know, I didn’t realize you were so intelligent. That is exciting. I love to hear things like that. Yes, absolutely. And when someone compliments us on our accomplishments, it absolutely goes into the core of who we are. And certainly it makes us feel better. We all need to be appreciated. There is an art to it. And the more that we love ourselves, the more easy it is for us to compliment others. So the more generous we are with our compliments, the more loving we are. Rather than heart closing, it’s heart opening. There’s another component to relationships that’s imperative and that’s respect and of course the more we respect ourselves the more others will respect us and it’s an important part of a relationship and having the ability to say no at the same time what I really want to talk about this because with this Me Too movement women have been experiencing men’s sexual advances and it’s been uncomfortable but I will say this that women in a marital situation often say no to their husband’s advance about sex and then, you know, thinking, well, I’m too tired. Is it judgment? Is it bitchiness? Well, it could be a lot of things. And maybe they are tired, but I know from the women I’ve spoken to that they often say no and then three hours later they’re still laying there awake going, geez, you know, I could have had sex and been asleep by now. And so we need to be careful when we’re saying no out of knee-jerk reaction. When we get into that autopilot, no. You want to ask yourself, where is this no coming from? Am I saying no to pleasure? Am I saying that I don’t want to receive pleasure? What about myself is rejecting being loved?
Dr. Mark Leeds [17:45] In addiction treatment and the 12 steps, I believe it’s the 10th step. There’s something about taking an inventory. And I think people develop these papers where they kind of check off, you know, throughout the day. Did I do anything wrong to anyone or did I say the wrong thing? Did I stop myself before I said something to hurt somebody? You know, I guess the idea is stopping, you know, rather than having to keep making amends for doing things wrong and hurting people. And, you know, you stop it before you say the wrong thing and hurt somebody. You kind of catch yourself and you’re always taking an inventory. And, you know, it almost seems like you could incorporate these things in a relationship. Maybe have a daily relationship inventory that you keep to yourself? You know, did I say the wrong thing or did I do the right things today?
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [18:26] Well, how about thinking of it as was I in my head versus my heart? Because it could be said that there’s really no right or wrong, but we could do better. And often we are reacting as opposed to responding. And that automatic no, and I think most women know we’ve done it. I know I’ve done it. And when we’re responding, we’re actually tapping into how do I feel as opposed to, well, he doesn’t deserve it or he did this to me and I don’t want to. We’ve got to learn how to process our emotions, move through them, as opposed to holding on to resentment. Because when we hold on to resentment, not only does it hurt the relationship, but it hurts ourselves. So we always have to look at what was my part in this and how am I stopping myself from receiving love? And am I shutting down? Is it my heart is closed? Am I responding from something old and long ago? Because that’s often what happens. That’s not even anything to do with this moment right now, especially in long-term relationships. We’ve got history. And we can’t be bringing up the stuff from, well, you did this to me five years ago. We can’t keep regurgitating those things because what we do is we drag the past into the present. We can’t move forward. So I vote for dealing with what we have right now. And let’s love more. Let’s touch more. Let’s be honest about how we really feel about ourselves. And if we are saying no, it’s more about ourselves refusing to be loved.
Dr. Mark Leeds [20:20] That reminds me of a, there was an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where the husband and wife, they’re fighting. And at some point, the wife, I guess, got over whatever she was angry about and the fight was over. And then they had sex that night. And then afterwards, she brought it up again. And he said, wait, I thought you were over that. I thought you forgave me or, you know, we were done with that. It turned out that she had pretended that she was over it just so they could have sex that night.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [20:48] I love that show. I think it’s hilarious and it’s very realistic. Very realistic. Very funny show. But, you know, there’s lots of different motivations, right? And we can lie. Sometimes we’re lying to our partner. Sometimes we’re lying to ourselves. But, you know, the bottom line is what is the relationship for? Is it to lash out and be mean to one another? Or is it to be more loving? And the one thing that I will say about relationships, if you want a relationship to work today, and I’m not talking about relationships from 40 years ago, I’m talking about now, we have to be committed to grow and evolve together because today we are growing. And if you’re not growing, you’re dying. And everybody’s got issues. And we’re all working to resolve those issues. And what’s the ultimate goal? To be happy. And so the happier we are with ourselves, the happier we’ll be with our partner. And here we are back to orgasm for life. And somebody asked me, well, is it possible to have an orgasm for life? And the way I look at it is, how can I be the best person I can be in my relationship with my partner, in my relationship with my children? And the relationship with my friends? And what can I do on a daily basis to check in with myself to make sure that my best self is showing up? Or is it my little child that’s showing up because I have a hurt feeling? Because often, two children that show up, and when the children show up, we’re coming from that hurt place and the wounding took place in our childhood, not right now. And so we have to be aware of what’s going on. And so raising awareness and noticing how we feel in any moment, it’s just a matter of witnessing, feeling. How do I feel? How do I feel about this? Would it be nice to have some pleasure? Would I sleep better tonight? Would I like more fun and joy? How could I make this relationship better and more loving? How could I make myself happier?
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:02] People are always probably thinking, you know, how can I make my business better or maybe play a sport better? And they should think of their relationship in the same way, always finding ways to improve things and see what’s not working and do more of what is working.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [23:15] Everybody can think about this. So think about days when you have a great night with your partner. You may have fabulous sex. You kissed for 15, 20 minutes. You had a beautiful dinner. You made love. You slept soundly. You woke up, you kissed your spouse, your partner in the morning, you went off to work, and you feel like your feet are barely touching the ground. Now, think about a time when you went to bed angry, you didn’t have sex, you woke up pissed off the next morning, you stomped out of the house, you drove off to work in a huff, then think about how your day would be at work. Which one is better? Which one would you prefer? So when our relationships are beautiful and transformative and growth-oriented, then we’re always looking to be kinder, looking to be more compassionate, not just with them, but with us too. So that’s the thing. That’s what I help my clients with is that, okay, So maybe they responded in a negative way. Well, how did you respond to them? And what happened first? We have to take responsibility for the things that we’re putting out. But I will say the more compassionate, loving, and understanding we are of ourselves, the better we show up in our relationships. So our responsibility is to be the best us that we can be, to lovingly accept ourselves, approve of ourselves, and then we can be authentic with our partner instead of saying, I’m fine when we’re not. So when someone says, well, are you okay, that you can say, well, I’m feeling a little sad right now. You know, my daughter’s going through something. And when you’re able to talk it through, I just did this myself with my date. I joined him for dinner and something had just happened with my daughter and I showed up at the restaurant in tears. Now, it wasn’t about me. It was about my daughter. But he gave me some advice and I went, wow. And I texted her what he suggested and I felt better. When we’re honest with ourselves and our partners, it’s amazing how faster we’ll move through it as opposed to stuffing it and saying nothing’s wrong when there’s something very much is wrong. I highly recommend being honest without being mean. My daughter lives in Colorado, and she’s just undergone a huge breakup, and not only breakup, but boyfriend moved out. And he said to me, well, have you invited her to come back home? And I said, well, I’ve invited her for a visit. And he said, you know, she may just need to know that if she wants to, she could move back home. Just knowing that she has that support if she wants it. And holy cow, I think it made all the difference, not only for her, but for me too.
Dr. Mark Leeds [26:26] Yeah, that is good advice.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [26:28] My daughter doesn’t want to live with me. I know she doesn’t, but knowing that I am here for her, that alone is what she needed from me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [26:38] Yeah, I think in general, actually, that’s great advice. I think parents should always be willing to take their children back. I mean, not necessarily for them to bring a whole bunch of other people back home.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [26:51] And that happens too. Dogs and cats and elephants and children too. Yes, I know. So that’s happening actually more today than it was 10, 15 years ago. And it’s because of the state of our country, the low pay for kids coming out of college, and the high cost of living. It’s this combination that makes it very challenging for millennials today. If we have issues going on with our children, those issues affect the relationship. So being on the same page as our partner and knowing that we have the support, knowing we can talk things through rather than one person thinking, I’m right, you’re wrong, that we need to be as equals in our relationship. Now, as equals, some people have the gift of knowing how to budget, you know, financial obligations. They could be very fiscally responsible where the other person not so much. So, you know, we have to know where our strengths are, and that’s one of the things that can help bond a relationship is that, you know, we may have strengths and weaknesses that are different. Hopefully they’re different, and so then we can support each other. But the big thing about, and I want to kind of bring this full circle, you know, because we’re talking about orgasm, if there are challenges that are unresolved, it’s going to be very difficult to have a great sex life. So we have to be able to talk. We have to be able to communicate. And we have to be open and honest as opposed to one person dictating this is how it needs to be and the other person acquiescing. Because then we’re in this adversarial relationship and that never works. We’re partners. We’re partners in sex. We’re partners in lovemaking. We’re partners in raising children. We’re partners in, you know, when one person’s down, how can we bolster the other? How can we support each other? It’s a proven fact that people that are in committed relationships live longer. Men are healthier. They have longer lifespans as opposed to men that are single, especially men. And so we were made to be partnered. That’s why we men and women fit together as puzzles. And, you know, yes, there are all kinds of different sexual orientations, but the man-woman paradigm thing, that’s a real thing. I mean, we are amazing the way we fit together. It’s beautiful, and it can be so much fun.
Dr. Mark Leeds [29:34] My patient population, it may not be representative of all people that are coming in for help with addiction. Typically, in my practice, most of the patients that come in are in relationships. In fact, most of them are married and many of them have children. In fact, a lot of cases it’s the husband or the wife bringing in their spouse for treatment and they’re hoping that this is going to work and maybe they can save their spouse and save their marriage.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [29:59] Well, I’m glad you brought up addiction because it is something that I experience too. Often what happens is addictions cascade from one to the next. We may fix the opioid or alcohol addiction, and then we may have a shopping addiction. We may fix the shopping addiction and then have a sugar addiction or a sex addiction. So all of these things will resolve when we lovingly accept ourselves. I mean, that’s part of the program. We have to have the spiritual practice in place without it. I know I couldn’t have healed all that I did. But the fact, too, is that we have to lovingly embrace ourselves rather than beat ourselves up for the choices we made and just know I can make better choices. Okay, now I’m feeling better. I’m going to let go of this shame and this guilt and this judgment because if we continue to beat ourselves up for the choices we made in the past, we’re not moving beyond it. You know, one of the things that I tell people when they ask me, how did I get into this work? How did I heal myself? Well, it was pain. And the reason we become addicted is because of pain. You know, we find something that will make us feel better, something that will stuff those sad feelings, the emotion, the anger, whatever it is. Sex can do the same thing. You know, we could be addicted to sex and find that, well, sex makes me feel better. And so we have to keep on having another fix and another fix. So I’m talking about healthy, balanced, not four times a day, every day. But, you know, a normal, whatever normal is, everybody’s different. But I’m talking about balance.
Dr. Mark Leeds [31:47] Regarding women in recovery, it’s definitely an issue for women trying to get help as far as, you know, along with medical treatment, therapy is important. Spiritual involvement, group therapy can be helpful. When women go to, say, for example, AA or NA meetings. In most cases, it’s mostly men. There’s less women. They say that when you look for a sponsor, it should be typically someone of your own gender. And there’s less women out there who are available to sponsor women and maybe less to even add to your network of people to call and to be able to talk to. What would you recommend as far as maybe finding a therapist, finding a group, what to read, who to talk to?
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [32:27] Addiction work is some of what I do, you know, because I recovered myself. So I didn’t do the 12-step program. I created something else. And it is a loving program. So somebody who has recovered from addiction doesn’t have to be a therapist. If there’s a really good coach out there like me that loves themselves and has recovered, You know, having someone to support you and keep you on track is imperative. We all need to have some support. So therapy, it didn’t work for me. And that’s why I ended up doing what I did, which was self-introspection and self-healing. And I read lots of books. And I just, I knew that the pain that I experienced was so great that I didn’t want to stay where I was. And I wanted something different. And so to me, I feel like if we commit to ourselves, and that’s the important piece, is that we have to be committed. And this work has to be done every single day. Because you know why? You’re on this planet with yourself every day. And so if you don’t like being alone with you, nobody else is going to want to be alone with you either. So that’s where I’m at is that we’ve got to love ourselves and I’m not talking about an egoic love I’m talking about really you know this heartfelt appreciation for who we are and recognizing wow you know what you did great yesterday and today is going to be even better so what could we do differently that would make today even better than yesterday So if we are not constantly ramping up and doing better than the day before, we’re not growing. We’ve got to continue to grow. That spiritual growth that, you know, whether it’s prayer, I highly recommend meditation. But spiritual practice on a daily basis, being alone with ourselves, sitting in silence and just tapping into our body’s wisdom. Each of our bodies has wisdom, and we have to learn to trust ourselves. So with that commitment and responsibility for ourselves comes trust. And that’s something that we build one step at a time.
Dr. Mark Leeds [34:52] And you made a good point that the 12 steps aren’t for everybody. Some people would say it’s the only solution, and the only way to stay clean is to go to AA or NA. One of my other guests, David, who’s clean in NA for 33 years, even said that he’s learned over the years that there’s different paths that people can take. And NA and AA are not the only way to do it. And therapy also. I mean, in fact, when they tell us when we treat opioid addiction, we have to provide a person with medical treatment and then also provide or refer a person to therapy. And therapy doesn’t always mean a board-certified doctor of psychology with a certificate in addiction treatment, and it doesn’t always mean specifically a Narcotics Anonymous meeting and getting a sponsor. There’s a whole variety of paths that people can take.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [35:43] When you are the spouse or partner of someone who is addicted, you need support too, and it can be very challenging. You don’t want to maybe go to family because it’s a private matter. You may not want to share with your friends. So who do you talk to that you can trust? Someone, you know, that knows where you’ve been and can feel for you and will listen and give you good, strong guidance. It’s necessary. I’ve been on both sides, both sides of the coin. I had a son who was addicted as well. And, you know, it often does, you know, follow genetics, you know, DNA and all that. It doesn’t have to, but it can. There’s lots of help out there, and knowing that you have unlimited options is always a better way.
Dr. Mark Leeds [36:31] I want to thank you for joining me for a second episode. I really appreciate it, and there’s a lot of really good information here. And I hope that all the listeners to this episode will go out and get the Orgasm for Life book and read it. I think it applies to any adult out there. We’ll find useful information in this book. So thank you for joining me.
Jennifer Elizabeth Masters [36:53] Well, thank you very much, Mark, for having me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [36:59] Thank you for joining us today on The Rehab on the Mental Health News Radio Network. I hope that you have found this show to be interesting and useful. If so, please subscribe to The Rehab Podcast and share on social media. I appreciate your taking the time to listen to The Rehab. Thank you.
