Can community help where rehab did not?
In June 2023, I spoke with Dustin Swartz, who went through dozens of treatment centers and detoxes before his life changed. Since then, he has joined Guy Sengstock’s group of circling practitioners and coaches and become part of a healing community called Fit for Service.
This is an archive episode, recorded when the show covered addiction and recovery broadly. We talked about trust, readiness, and what happens when a program is built around money rather than around helping people.
Can anyone help a person who is not ready?
At 3:48, I said that we could design the most complete program in the world, and it would still not reach a person who is not ready. I repeated a saying I had heard, that it is not over until the gorilla decides it is over.
Dustin took the image further at 5:33. In his view, there are often several gorillas at once, and one of the biggest for him was his own belief system. Part of him still believed that slipping away to use again made sense. Still, admitting that took a great deal of trust because there was shame in it.
Why does trust matter so much?
At 8:01, I brought up a conversation with Stephen Finlay, who runs a supervised consumption site. People there are not given drugs, but they are given supplies and, more importantly, a relationship. So, when they are ready, they know who they can trust and who they can talk to.
From 9:44, Dustin described a staff member in South Florida who called himself a janitor. His real role was to build trust outside of therapy.
At 12:50, he put it simply: good recognizes good. If a person has even a small spark that wants a good life, the right person can activate it.
What is circling, and could it belong in a rehab?
At 14:57, I asked about circling, which I had learned about through Dustin and later discussed with Guy Sengstock on the show. From 15:42, Dustin said he would make it part of the first day of every week in a rehab. He described it as a yoga of communication, built on eye gazing and careful listening, that breaks down walls quickly.
At his first Fit for Service gathering, circling came at the very end, and many people wished it had come first. At a later summit, in March in Lockhart, Texas, it came first. Interestingly, in all the treatment centers and detoxes he went through, he never once encountered it.
Is a community like this just a cult?
At 21:07, I admitted that Fit for Service first sounded to me like a cult. Yet, when I looked into the people behind Fit for Service, I found hours of public interviews where they talk openly about their own lives.
Dustin said at 24:18 that he expected something like a concert. Instead, he found that the coaches made themselves part of the community and sat down with anyone going through a hard time. In his view, the real value was not time with the leaders. It was the relationships among the people there.
Why do some programs keep people coming back?
From 32:09, I described a visitor to my office who had become wealthy in the insurance industry. His advice was that the secret is a captive audience, people locked in who cannot get out. Unfortunately, I think a lot of systems work that way, and some rehabs seem to share that philosophy.
I compared it with car accident claims, where every bit of the coverage gets billed. From 35:24, I called the difference ethical versus manipulative.
At 38:42, Dustin said he had almost opened a treatment center more than once. He and his father walked away partly because they could not be sure of keeping it afloat without pushing to keep people there rather than helping them gain their freedom.
How should success be measured?
At 41:45, I pointed out that when pharmaceutical companies study a new medication for opioid dependence, success usually means drug-free urine tests over a set period. Of course, a study needs a clear definition. Yet, a person’s own idea of success may turn out to be completely different from what their family expected of them.
From 43:09, Dustin compared what he got from a month in treatment with what he got from a single gathering of the community. Treatment kept him safe, and he saw value in that. At the gathering, he sat by a fire with Boyd Varty, a lion tracker, and quoted him: “We are not looking for the meaning of life. We are looking for the feeling of being alive.”
What can a family do when rehab keeps failing?
At 46:24, I asked about parents whose child has been through many rehabs, each followed by a return to use. If they send their son to an event in another state, how would they know he is even going?
From 48:07, Dustin was careful. He was not suggesting that a person who is still injecting drugs should go straight into a program like this. In his view, a family might work with a reasonable recovery coach, allow time for stabilization, and hold up a community like this as a goal that inspires hope.
At 50:03, I compared that to object-oriented programming, where a new class inherits the essentials of the original. I imagined a version of this community with sober companions for people who still need accountability early on.
What did treatment leave out for him?
At 54:29, Dustin named the obstacles that treatment did not address. In all those stays, nobody helped him with his discomfort with the opposite sex, or with groups of people who were already happy and healthy. So, practices that took that fear away left him free to focus on his own health.
Who is Dustin Swartz?
Dustin Swartz went through dozens of treatment centers and detoxes over many years, and he talks here about what helped him and what did not. He has joined the Art of Circling group of practitioners and coaches led by Guy Sengstock, and he is part of the Fit for Service community.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Readiness cannot be forced, but trust can be built while a person waits to be ready. Dustin’s account suggests that what often makes the difference is a real connection. A program built to help people, rather than to keep them, looks very different from the inside.
How do I approach this today?
My thinking has kept developing since this conversation was recorded. Today my practice is built on one idea that runs through all of it: when the body has adapted to a substance, the safest way off is usually gradual, with the smallest steps the person’s nervous system can tolerate. Physical dependence is not addiction.
A person who took a medication exactly as prescribed and now cannot stop it safely needs a plan, not a label. Where a medication can make the process gentler, I use it. Patients direct their own care, and a good plan includes the risks, the alternatives, an exit plan from day one, and the right to change course.
For opioid dependence I prescribe buprenorphine, which steadies the body so a person can rebuild their life without the cycle of withdrawal. Visits are monthly, or weekly when needed. Some people stay on it for a long time, and that is a legitimate choice. Others later taper slowly, using the same gradual approach I use for every other medication.
I believe medication for opioid dependence should be available wherever people need it. I prescribe in Florida only.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (59 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:00] Hey, Dustin, welcome. How are you today?
Dustin Swartz [00:03] I’m doing very well, sir. It’s great to be sitting here across from you.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:10] So, now I had a long time ago, there was a guest on the podcast and he was interesting. He actually didn’t want to use his real name. He came on anonymously and we did an audio podcast. And we talked about, I think we named the episode, the Florida shuffle. And he talked about the rehab industry in Florida. He said he had been in at least 30 different rehabs until he finally found one that worked for him. And the one that worked for him was in California. I think he was more on the podcast as partly a promotional thing. I think he probably did some work, but the place in California, I did later on get some, you know, some additional feedback from different people and it seems like it probably was a good place you know for men that are really into like physical activity it’s like run by a navy seal and but anyway so you know so you know for if a person’s a man and they’re up for that kind of five months of intense physical activity every morning it might be the right place for them if they can get into it but you know of course it’d be great if there was a solution for everybody you know or almost everybody or a lot more people. But there’s definitely a lot of bad places, a lot of things. So what do you think about that as far as like the Florida shuffle or the rehab shuffle and what’s going on in the industry?
Dustin Swartz [01:32] So Mark, you know a little bit of my story, but I’m always happy to talk about this, that I was in 40 plus treatments and detoxes. And I was fortunate enough to meet some great men, some great women, mostly great men that served as mentors and planted seeds that would help me shape my view of this industry, probably for the rest of my life. It’s always changing. And as the healing spaces, the treatment industry seems to constantly shift. But my opinion on it is that it needs a lot of work. There are solutions that are… Are good general treatment centers that maybe anyone could find a little bit of safety, community, and purpose, and hope. And I also believe that very seldom does one glove fit all. And when you talk about something specific like that speaks to me because some of the most impactful treatments and recovery centers that I was fortunate enough to come into were very specified or run by a man that decided that it needed to be a men’s only program and had a very rigid and personal view on what was necessary as a rite of passage for us boys to become men in that situation. There’s the Florida shuffle. I mean, it’s almost so comical at this point in time that I’m surprised that nothing more has changed. But then when you look at the state of the world, There’s so much going on that, I mean, how much attention can be put on something that is somewhat necessary. We need healing spaces. We need safe places for people to go when they’re no longer in control of their life. To some degree, I was engaging a kill switch in my own life when I was using syringes, using harmful drugs that have very little therapeutic purpose. So I mean what do you do about that well there needs to be a place to go and it’s become big business and yeah we could we could crack this egg forever
Dr. Mark Leeds [03:48] Yeah yeah that’s definitely and there’s a way that these places are put together and I mean you know to be fair and I don’t think there’s a lot enough research and study of this but there’s a you know when people start out you know with addiction and in a certain state where they’re just not ready for it to get help no matter you could throw anything at them you could have the best most perfect program in the world you could expose them to and like you said you can plant seeds you can say well when you’re when you’re ready for this you know you’re probably going to think back on what we talked about or something you know there’s so yeah good people can help you out by planting the seed of saying You know, when you’re ready, you’ll know what I was talking about at this time. And it could be a long time from now. But, you know, I heard one guy say, you know, he said that active addiction is like sex with a gorilla. That’s how he put it. He said, you know, it’s not over until the gorilla decides it’s over. And so, yeah, so, you know, yeah, so you could have the most, we could design right now the most perfect rehab where you have, you know, integration with the family. If the family is supportive and every kind of therapy in the world and, you know, really going deep into the person’s inner workings of their mind, you know, with the best psychologist and psychiatrist, you know, doing whatever, every kind of therapy. You know, we could have everything, you know, we could have horses and whatever, goats, chickens, whatever kind of therapy, you know, people are doing now, yoga. And if you put someone in the middle of all that and they’re not ready, nothing’s going to take them out of it. I mean, what do you think about that?
Dustin Swartz [05:33] I love what you brought up about being ready and the analogy about the gorilla. I’ve heard that many different times. And just listening to you talk right now, my mind broke it down even more that it’s almost like there’s several different gorillas sometimes. And any person like myself coming into a treatment situation, you know, like the staff, those that were trying to help me, I mean, they’re dealing with so much. A lot of it for me was belief system like I had in 12-step programs they call it reservations when somebody’s kind of holding a secret back about some desire to use or like some sneaky little plan like okay like I do want to stay clean but if this or when this you know I’m going to get away with it for me there was a lot of belief systems that needed to shift I had this belief that it still made sense in some way. And I didn’t want to share that it still made sense in some way for me to find a time in my life to sneak off and use the wrong drugs. It takes a lot of trust building to get somebody to admit those things because there’s something shameful in that. So just looking at the belief systems that are fostered by these bad habits and this dysfunctional life and these dysfunctional coping skills that a lot of us tend to lean into to run away from our traumas, our pain, our shame, our lack of community, the feeling that we’re not understood, we’re not seen. That alone is a gorilla to deal with. And then, I mean, there’s so much else. Like you brought up family. I mean, there can be a lot of baggage. And to some degree, I also feel like you’ve identified the fact that when somebody’s coming in treatment, it’s a process that may take many years. Somebody going in and out, I don’t think is the worst thing. I would love for anybody to go to treatment, to go to recovery center, and it’d be the last time. But I’m also not surprised when it takes somebody a dozen runs through that system to start to have those shifts to truly build a desire to trust some of the people that they’re learning from. So, I mean, there’s a lot to go at with this.
Dr. Mark Leeds [08:01] Yeah, that brings up harm reduction. And a conversation I had with Stephen Finlay, who runs a supervised consumption site where people are able to use drugs under supervision. And a lot of people are against that. I’ve discussed it with other people on the podcast and they right away said, well, you’re enabling them. You’re allowing them, you know, and they don’t give them drugs. You know, if you walk into his place without drugs, you know, they’re like, well, we can’t help you with that part of it. But they will provide them with the paraphernalia, whatever equipment they need and supplies they need. And the most important thing is that they make a connection with people. They have a relationship with them. They get to know them. They build that trust. So, you know, these people are just not ready. But when they are ready, they know who they can trust and go to. They know who they can talk to. You know, they know that, for example, the guy running the place and his staff, that they’re not undercover cops. They’re not working for the family. They’re not, you know, whatever you think they might be. Not only are they trustworthy, but they’ve gotten to know them. They’ve kind of shared some things with them. And, you know, and but that and that maybe that doesn’t happen when you take someone who’s not ready and you throw them into a 30 day rehab. You know, maybe that trust isn’t isn’t always. I don’t know. I mean, it kind of feels like a remedial thing in rehab, but maybe in a lot of them where they’re like, you know, this is a program. This is what you’re going to do. You know, put, you know, stop talking and listen and let us preach the 12 steps to you. And that’s what it’s that or the steps or die or whatever they say.
Dustin Swartz [09:44] And you see that a lot. There was a long time where I was going to treatment. There was a period where I probably two or three years where I’d walk into these treatment centers and they all had the same system. It was just different people running the exact same machines. And it was clear that there was something missing. And, you know, you brought up trust again and being ready. And again, I would harken back to the terminology, a shift in belief system. Somebody has to believe that it can be different and that their life can change and that there’s hope and there’s purpose. And that will be fun, creative and novel approaches. The most impactful treatment centers I went to had great mentors. And they also had these characters that you didn’t know what they did exactly. Like sometimes they like there was this one guy at a place in South Florida that would tell me he’s a janitor and he meant that he was cleaning messes up a lot of times. He was the guy that they would send in if somebody wanted to leave against medical advice, if there was some kind of physical confrontation. But he was also somebody that his purpose was to build trust with the clients outside of the therapists, outside the techs, which also have a role of building trust. It’s very important. Personnel in a treatment center is almost your number one commodity. The efficacy of that treatment center is predicated on the character of that staff. But these rogues in some of these treatment centers sometimes would have the most impact on me because I realized that you could understand that they were trying to bond with you. And it felt so safe because their purpose was just innocent. Like, hey, like, let’s try to get past the resistance in you to shift those beliefs that has you giving us lip service. And there was a tacit agreement between us. Anytime that I would actually spend time with one of those individuals that this was a relationship I wanted to foster, even if I didn’t trust the other staff. And I think that’s something that’s sorely missing from a lot of these centers. These characters also sometimes serve as like Santa Claus in those centers, like somebody that’s going through a really tough time. Like that’s the guy that’s going to grab you and take you out to get a burger to kind of distract you from a traumatic event or something that was brought up in therapy that might typically have you running. Yeah. So there’s a lot of ways to go with this.
Dr. Mark Leeds [12:30] Yeah and that same guy if you had run into him at a you know like an AA, NA, or SMART Recovery meeting and you know maybe he walked up to you after the meeting and said you know you look like you’re new here and you’re not doing too well let’s go get a burger it could have happened in that setting also probably
Dustin Swartz [12:50] Yeah and I would I would I would imagine that I’d say no to a lot of people but those special characters that are playing that role in those treatment centers almost always they were there for a reason that there was a magic about them and that’s how they fit best in these systems so I’d have I’d have probably said yes in any situation to such an individual there’s I believe that you know just like we can sense we can read the room about people’s energy like if you know like hey this is a bad shifty character I believe good recognizes is good and if there’s even a little bit of a spark in me no matter how much of a wasteland I’ve put myself in if there’s even the slightest spark that like I want a good life as soon as somebody comes up to me that’s like that has that character it will activate that and slowly the bonfire builds to a configuration if I allow it to be and that allows for some change takes time though
Dr. Mark Leeds [13:51] Yeah yeah that’s sounds good and you know when you talk about that magic you know I’m sure you know right away I started thinking like how could we you know find that you know isolated I mean you know not not to the extent of like the avatar movie like let’s go to the planet where the magic is and let’s like rape the planet and let’s take all of it and bottle up and sell it or whatever but you know but they
Dustin Swartz [14:15] Got that down
Dr. Mark Leeds [14:16] Yeah you know like like you know the rehabs are like, wow, the horses are magic. Let’s bring in, let’s do equine therapy and we can bill for it. And, you know, maybe they’ll get the magic when they touch the horse. But if, you know, either way, you know, and give everybody a massage and everything. So, yeah, there’s a lot of stuff that happens in rehabs. But then there’s the real magical connection. You know, maybe something was meant to be that you were meant to come across that particular person at that time. But you know it seems like you
Dustin Swartz [14:49] Because I see you as part hero apart and you’ve inspired me so much you know you’re one of those characters
Dr. Mark Leeds [14:57] Oh thank you thank you and now but now you’re you’re like I think you’re involved in some things that are taking it to a to a whole new level and maybe following a path that could help to instruct other people looking for either the path to follow or to look for the people following that path that might be able to help them. And you’ve gotten involved in some things that, you know, I think go way beyond, you know, the typical offerings in therapy and recovery. You know, just for example, you know, I had Guy Sengstock from Circling on the podcast. You know, I talked to him and I only met him because, you know, you had gotten involved in that. And imagine that was, I mean, is that, can you imagine that being something that could be done in a rehab or would it would it just not fit into that setting
Dustin Swartz [15:42] No I think that’s something that they should do day one like of each week in a rehab center so it’s funny you mentioned circling because it had such an impact on me in october since I’ve joined the art of circling Guy Sengstock’s crew of practitioners and coaches it’s they call it like the yoga of communication. There’s a lot of references to it. And I won’t try to dive too deep into that, you know, the particulars of it, but it’s a way to break down walls very quickly, communication, eye gazing, impactful listening, and learning how to truly process what’s going on between another individual that you may know nothing about and getting past all of the silly inhibitions that we have that keep us from connecting. So I’ve been fortunate enough to, as you referenced as well, to join in with some communities that are focused on healing. One of those is called Fit for Service. And I did some of their offerings that were outside of their regular core program. Fit for Service gauges itself as a program, a community that wants to help people heal their traumas at the same time that they help ignite the fire within and help you find your cosmic purpose, your purpose in the universe. And during my first summit for Fit for Service, at the very end of the summit, we did a practice called Circling, where we spent a lot of time just eye gazing with people first in silence and then perfecting the art of listening and responding, and they directed our communication. Very, very careful, very practiced, and as I said, extremely impactful. Now, we did that at the end of the summit, and, you know, talk about a great community. These people listen to us. Everybody in their surveys apparently put in at the end of that October summit, man, it would have been great if we did the circling at the beginning, because as soon as we did the circling, all of us felt so much more connected to people that we hadn’t even spoken to for the last five days. And we felt the desire to spend more time with them. So they listened to us. And I just went to another summit here. It was just in March in Lockhart, Texas. And the first activity that we did was circling. So I was in a group of 200 people, some of which I knew because they were in other summits or Full Temple Reset, which was kind of a side trek, a side adventure through some of these healing communities. And circling at the beginning of this had us bonded so well from the jump. So if you brought circling into a treatment center, I’m sure at some point in time, somebody’s used it, but I never faced it in the 40 plus treatment centers and detoxes I went to. I feel like you would have a much more effective community and community to me is just like the staff is one of the major strengths that will gear you gear an individual gear somebody like myself that was suffering from serious spiritual trauma. To want to push myself to continue to heal and hopefully become accountable in a transparent way. Transparency and the ability to be vulnerable, that can save somebody very quickly. Circling allows for that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [19:23] Yeah. So full temple reset, it seemed like that was more about physical health and, you know, maybe eating healthy, exercising healthy. I’m not totally sure. What was that about and how did that, how was that different from fit for service and some of the other things that you’ve done?
Dustin Swartz [19:44] Full Temple Reset, they described it as, I look back just to see the actual definition. They describe it as a five-day biological, psychological, and spiritual reset. Now, the protocol is that you’re fasting, you’re doing a keto fast mimicking diet where basically you get a shake that has some coconut fat, a scoop of protein, it’s a bone collagen protein, and bone broth collagen protein, excuse me. Women get berries in theirs, some ice, some water, and 20 macadamia nuts. And that’s all you eat each day. And at the same time, you’re doing a lot of the physical stuff you described, stretching with Kyle Kingsbury. You’re doing contrast therapy, which is back and forth between sauna and cold dip and then a journaling course. So there is a lot of it that’s psychological, works on traumas, works on goal setting. Eric Godsey is as integral to it as Kyle Kingsbury. And I see him as a modern Carl Jung in the making. Like he really wants to help people heal through some of the tenets and understandings that have most benefited him. And he has a great story as well, which is easy to describe. But the two of them put this program together and talk about a way to start the year.
Dr. Mark Leeds [21:07] Yeah. Yeah. That’s another thing that’s interesting about that. And, you know, when you had first told me about Fit for Service and, you know, I didn’t know. I mean, my first, you know, the first thing I thought is like, you know, sounds like a cult, you know, sounds like one of these brainwashing things that pulls you and it just keeps you going. I mean, that’s without. So many jokes about that. Yeah, I mean, that’s without even looking it up because I had a friend that went to one of those, you know, and I think high school or maybe just after high school, you know, they used to have a thing. I don’t know if it was in the 70s or 80s it was called est you know est and it and it was that was definitely clearly a brainwashing thing and then they brought it back because my friend one-to-one called yeah so my friend one-to-one called the forum I think it was called the forum and but it was exactly the same program just renamed and they put you in a room and they don’t let you use the bathroom they don’t let you eat they break you down they make you feel terrible about yourself and then they build you up again I mean it’s like purely brainwashing but the people going in when they see the people coming out everybody coming out is like smiling and saying it’s the greatest experience in their life and it’s the greatest thing they’ve ever done and my friend was kind of like that for a while he seemed like very much brainwashed for at least a few weeks he kind of it wore off after a while I mean it didn’t he didn’t stay that way but yeah so there’s definitely those kind of things but then the people in fit for service when he told me about it I went and looked it up and I mean I don’t know how many hours of podcast recordings you listen to these people like like you said eric godsey aubrey marcus you can read his books you can listen to him talking to people other people interviewing him and they’re connected to people all the way to the top in the podcasting world like one that you told me about oh what’s his name the you know the science guy the AI guy podcaster
Dustin Swartz [23:03] Andrew Huberman
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:05] No he’s great also of course Andrew Huberman
Dustin Swartz [23:10] Lex Fridman yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [23:11] Lex Fridman when you bring up Andrew Huberman he’s connected he’s done I think cross interviews with the same crowd of people and there’s someone who’s yeah he’s at the top of being respectable as far as he’s a brain scientist at Stanford University. So, you know, that’s who’s connected through various people with all these other people. And, you know, and then Lex Fridman, an AI researcher from MIT. And, you know, so all these, you know, great minds are connected with the people that are involved with Fit for Service. And you can listen to them, you know, Eric Godsey, you can listen to him speak for hours and hours interviewing and getting into his own issues and talking about other people and with other people and really exploring, you know, how to improve themselves and how other people have improved themselves. And Aubrey Marcus, the same thing, you know, who runs Fit for Service. So this isn’t like, you know, a cult where you don’t really know who’s involved or who’s behind it. I mean, these are real people trying to help themselves and help other people to be better in the world.
Dustin Swartz [24:18] And I’m glad you bring that up because I’ll try to dust over this quickly. But it’s very important to note that my perception of this going in when I went to my first summit was that it was going to be kind of like a concert. Like I would show up and they would bring Aubrey out from behind the curtain and he’d speak and that would be kind of how it was. Very quickly, I found I was quite incorrect. And the situation was that you have several very successful gentlemen and ladies that want that are appreciative and grateful for how the universe has worked out for them. And they want to help other people heal and help other people find their purpose and continue to strive to do the same thing with how sideways some things are going in the world. That’s that was a relief to me to realize that was the main intent and goal. Like it is a business in some ways, but I don’t think it’s a very profitable one for them at times because they’re giving of themselves very greatly. There are people that are being paid to do certain things, but not everybody’s making money. And that was one thing that I picked up on very quickly, that there’s there was probably a great profit loss in some of these events because they’re trying things. They had it donation based, which some of the wiser minds from Substack to some of these life coaches, like when I see them approach it like that, I really appreciate that. They’ve had to curb some of that because they realized they weren’t going to even be able to pay the bills. But when I showed up, Mark, I found out that not only were the coaches approachable, but they make themselves part of the community. Now, I’m not going to tell you that I’m best buddies with Eric or I’m best buddies by any means with Kyle or Aubrey. In fact, I’ve only had passing conversations with these gentlemen, but they make their time available. And anybody that’s going through a tough time, they will walk over and they will sit down and they will spend time with them. If somebody’s in crisis, if somebody’s having a harder time in the community, they get more attention. And there’s a process when you join this where they get to know you because you fill out a questionnaire and you ask, they ask you pretty intensive questions. And I think they’re pretty good at what they do and learning more about us than we actually understand about ourselves at the same time that they allow us to teach them what we see as our purpose. And they set up a container that we can build this ultimate community. The real bounty isn’t spending time with Aubrey, Kyle, and Eric. That’s great, okay? Don’t get me wrong. Full Temple, 35 of us, there was two hours a day where we’re asking them questions. You could ask them anything you want. Kyle could teach you how to optimize your body just in that question and answer time. The real bounty is the relationships you build with other people that are on this path. Ohana, as a lot of people understand that beautiful word.
Dr. Mark Leeds [27:10] Yeah. Yeah. And so… I think it’s a cult. So you do have one extreme of like you know there’s these brainwashing organizations and religious cults and things like that and then and then what you went through and then somewhere in between there’s you know people like tony robbins who I’m sure is a good person and he does you know he does some of this stuff he jumps in the pool of cold water and he’s healthy and talks about his own issues and whatever but also I think when you go to one of his events it is all about him you know like you said Aubrey Marcus could have got up and on the stage and made the whole thing about him and you know preach to you and had loud music playing and turn it into like kind of a you know it wasn’t it doesn’t sound like it was anything like that whatsoever
Dustin Swartz [27:53] He could have built that momentum so quickly he could have built that kind of momentum and having people run off the cliff with him like lemmings if he wanted to because like that’s that’s the nature of the world that we live in it was social media and anybody that’s got enough of a following could be hypnotized, hijacked into believing that’s the way to go, you know, like that Aubrey wants zealots, but that is not what he’s looking for. And I feel like I read the room well enough to assess that pretty damn well.
Dr. Mark Leeds [28:22] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and something about that kind of a Tony Robbins thing, you know, where he gets on stage and he said, you know, here I am, I’m seven feet tall with giant feet and I can do karate and all these great things and you can be just like me. And, you know, a lot of us are looking at him like, you know, during the thing, I’m sure it sounds great. Then you walk out, you’re like, well, I’m not seven feet tall. I’m, you know, I’m, you know, I’m not him, you know, I’m like, you know, I’m my own person. You know, so whatever, whatever he’s up there preaching might not really be for me. So, you know, there’s like a, I guess everyone has their own path and, you know, you know, being an audience member and someone preaching to you, I think, you know, like you’re saying, it’s, you’re making connections with other people that are all, in different situations on their own path.
Dustin Swartz [29:07] Oh, yes. And they describe Fit for Service as a place that you could meet your life partner, that you could meet future business partners, that you could perhaps come up with ideas to shape your life that you never conceived of before. But they know that you will build friendships, lifelong family, and they know that you will build community. And I haven’t seen one person walk into it with the right intent that hasn’t found that almost immediately. Yeah. So fortunate.
Dr. Mark Leeds [29:46] Do you think that program, Fit for Service, could be helpful to someone who’s very new in recovery and maybe not even completely ready to give up their addiction? But, you know, maybe like, you know, say that you came across someone that really needed help and they’re like trying to decide, should I go to rehab or should I go to fit for service or should I go travel the world? You know, they’re trying to figure out something they can do to get out of their environment and they’re just ready to try anything different. Could it be helpful to them?
Dustin Swartz [30:18] I think it could be very helpful. I find it hard to believe that I made it as far as I did without true Ohana, like a true community. A lot of the spiritual purging that I had to do in the last 10 years of my life at certain periods was understand that maybe I wasn’t running with the right pack. Even when I tried to recalibrate my life and seek 12-step help. And yeah, one of the most essential parts of recovery is not feeling alone and feeling like there’s somebody there to support. And so often, as we know very well, family can have the greatest intentions, but also aggravate situations without even trying because they just love us so much and they’re so scared and energy is palpable. And when you have people that are outside of your issues or outside of your history that you have a common bond with there’s something magical about how that doesn’t affect like there’s no there’s no osmosis of the negative energy in such relationships or at least seldom there is a lot less than with family so I find it to be a great solution for people that feel like there is no hope and it could be a great foundation for many other things I would love to think that somebody in fit for service came there with you know like a secret like that they’re actually struggling with an addiction and maybe they get vulnerable and they get honest with us and then god that would be great to embrace somebody in such a safe container. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [32:09] Yeah. It’s so different from the philosophy of a lot of people in business, you know, the, I guess the difference between a, an ethical business and a business that’s all about, you know, profit and whatever, you know, like I had come across someone came by to visit us at the office and he was someone that had, you know, […] And he was telling me the way, you know, he was kind of putting down my medical practice and said, you know, you’re going about it all wrong. You know, the way to really move forward is to have a captive audience. And he was invested in the insurance industry. You know, this guy got wealthy and retired and was doing really well financially. And he said, the secret is to lock people in, you know that they can’t get out you know that you know and he there’s their their system was
Dustin Swartz [33:04] That’s a secret for his success huh
Dr. Mark Leeds [33:06] Right yeah for so you know you start to you know and when someone in front of you is like that and you’re struggling to get your business to work and he you know he’s telling you like like all I do is sit around all day and drive fancy cars and enjoy life although he had his own issues you know things aren’t all great but he talked about the insurance issue how they lock in the medicare people and they’re they can’t change their insurance until a year, you know, but I think there’s a lot of systems like that, you know, that more so than looking to help people is to lock them in, you know, like, for example, you go to rehab. Yeah. Oh, say that again. Sales attitude. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I’m sure there’s good and bad sales, you know, but, and, but yeah, I mean, a salesperson who’s, you know, and I think, you know, when you maybe contact a rehab, you know, you see them on online and you’re looking for help. You type in your web browser, you know, I need help to get off of fentanyl or whatever. And a bunch of places come up and you see a place and like, you know, check your insurance card right now. Let’s see if you qualify. It won’t cost you anything. And,
Dustin Swartz [34:07] You’ll never stop at phone calls.
Dr. Mark Leeds [34:10] Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I think that, you know, a lot of those places might have that same philosophy. Like if we can get people locked in here and, you know, build that insurance card for everything we can, you know, at the same thing, it’s the same philosophy with car accident. You get in a car accident, you call a lawyer and go to the chiropractor, and it’s a whole system of like, there’s this much money available, and we need to make sure we bill every bit of it. There’s like $20,000 of PIP. I don’t really know how that whole thing works, but the chiropractor has got to do enough massage and electrical therapy and whatever they do to meet that price. They’re going to get that money one way or the other. And same thing with, I think, a rehab. You know, your insurance will cover a certain amount and they’re going to make sure you get enough petting horses and massages and going to all kinds of different therapies that they can bill for. And that’s like so completely different than, you know, what we’re talking about. You know, it’s like a whole nother world. And, you know, and it sounds like, like, I mean, I know what you’re doing. A lot of these programs, they’re not cheap. It’s not like it’s free. Although maybe there’s some help for people in that way.
Dustin Swartz [35:22] There’s cheap options, but yeah, it’s a cost.
Dr. Mark Leeds [35:24] Yeah, but it sounds like it’s a fraction of, I mean, rehabs can cost anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000 up to $100,000 for a month. For the same program. I mean, you might be in a nicer place or whatever, But yeah, I mean, at that price, I mean, people are definitely not – I mean, that’s a whole other conversation. They’re definitely not getting what they’re paying for in those situations. But yeah, I think if someone was to say let’s take that same money and put it towards something else, community, connection, and not with that philosophy of let’s lock you in and build your insurance to the max or whatever, but let’s actually put you in an environment that we really honestly wanted to make it a healing environment. And maybe it’s not perfectly designed like a business. You know, it’s not like Disney World because, you know, we didn’t like perfectly design it to get your money every step of the way, but we designed it to actually help you and put you in the best possible therapeutic situations. I mean, it’s a whole different philosophy. It’s like ethical versus manipulative, really.
Dustin Swartz [36:35] You’re you’re 100 correct it’s all willingness to like people have to volunteer for it whereas in treatment centers a lot of times the motivation isn’t coming from self which it’s another gambit to deal with and a lot of times when I would go to a treatment center I was lucky if I wanted to be there after a day or two very lucky every once in a while I’d happen upon a place where sure this isn’t what I want to be doing with my life right now but I was wow like blown away by how much I immediately felt relieved that I was in a place like that versus where I was previously not trying to talk myself in any way shape or form and yeah you don’t have that a lot and I do think that there’s a lot of value in things like this and you know just we’re talking a lot about fit for service and I will certainly I can certainly talk forever about this at this point in time because I just see so many avenues and I’m watching what the community members are doing and they’re pushing us to heal to learn a little bit more about our purpose understand what we’re good at and then take that magic and learn to weave it into our own lives they don’t necessarily want us to like constantly be feeding fit for service with people or our presence it’s you know take these skills and make the make your microcosm a better place yeah and that’s something else I think in shortage and treatment centers yeah more of a system where it’s like okay if you make it if not we’ll see you’ll be back.
Dr. Mark Leeds [38:23] Yeah. Yeah. It’s yeah. They had that saying, you know, I don’t know if you ever heard that one that we, you know, look to your left and look to your right. And only one of you out of the three is going to make it, you know, which is actually much higher than the success rate of rehab.
Dustin Swartz [38:42] That’s, that’s something that I feel can change. And I’ve been to a couple of places where more people succeed and it’s clear why there’s a difference between those places and spots where I don’t think they really care if you make it as much as they’ll tell you that they do, because there’s a bottom line. And as I’ve told you a little bit about in our talks, I almost opened the treatment center a few times. I was offered the ability to buy into one. I watched other people create theirs. I wouldn’t say I built other people’s treatment centers, but I certainly helped with some of the ideas, machining some of what would be effective and what might be a wise move. And one of the reasons my dad and I, who were business partners on the thought of opening a treatment center, turned our backs on it was that we weren’t, we weren’t assured that we were going to keep, be able to keep it afloat without really trying to push for people being there more so than actually gaining freedom. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Leeds [39:41] Yeah. Yeah, imagine you invest a lot of money in the business of a treatment center. And then, you know, when you’re sitting in front of a client and you’re talking to them and you think, well, he’d really benefit from, you know, maybe fit for service or he’d benefit from this or that. And, you know, if you’re going to be completely honest, you’re like, our treatment center, I want it to be great. Yeah, but, you know, most places are not going to say, I think you might do better somewhere else. So I’m going to give you a phone number you can call on the website or whatever. And, you know, no business is going to do that. In most cases, they’re going to say like, oh, no, we can offer you everything here. Everything you need. This is exactly what you need. Yeah. Yeah. You tell us what you’ve got. Which is a major issue. You know, a lot of these places, you know, in fact, they go to a marketing person. The marketing person says, okay, what are you offering? What services are you offering? We offer everything. Put it all in there. Anything you can think of and more just list it and who’s your audience you want to reach everybody you know which is definitely not not the best way to approach it
Dustin Swartz [40:45] No and I’m starting to see that there are some places opening that are kind of like just saying hey this is what we offer this is our niche and we know about other things and yeah they’re a minority I know some owners and I’m very lucky to call them friends that’s their approach they’ll turn people away very often because they’re not because they don’t want them to come in as much as they want them to go somewhere else you had spoken to me for the first time you were the first one to tell me about adventure-based programs that exist and you know for somebody like my myself I can’t believe I wasn’t on an adventure-based program all of those years that I went in and out of 30 plus treatment centers before I even heard of them you know yes I mean some people need different ways to heal. And you’re not going to reach everybody, having them sit in a circle in a room and talk about the 12 steps.
Dr. Mark Leeds [41:45] Yeah. Yeah. And then, I mean, another thing is how we define success. I mean, addiction treatment, at least the pharmaceutical companies, when they show off their new products like Sublocade, their definition of success is in a study, they’ll do a study and then they’ll check, you know, a urine drug test for a period of time. And, you know, if a client or a patient is able to come back and have an opioid-free urine on Sublocade for a year, that’s considered a success, you know, compared to other treatment or that’s what they look at and pretty much nothing else, you know, and of course they’re trying to do science, so they can’t, you know, they have to define it in some clear way. But yeah, I mean, you know, just for example, you know, say that you’re in your family, your family expects you to be a certain person. And if you’re not that person, you’re not successful. But then you may find in your journey, you kind of flip it upside down. You’re like, well, you know, maybe people are saying, you know, you’ll never walk in your father’s shoes, your grandfather’s shoes, you’ll never be them. And then you realize it’s all flipped upside down. Like, I never wanted to be them. That’s not who I was supposed to be. And you’re maybe even something far beyond that in a whole different way.
Dustin Swartz [43:09] I like that point. And as I was listening to you describe that, I thought again about what you mentioned about the price of treatment and you mentioned the word success. Okay, so success for them is what? That you never have to go to treatment again, that you’re cured, that you’re doing well, that you no longer suffer from addiction, you don’t engage that kill switch where you’re taking risks with your life. Interesting that they would put a $30,000, we’ll say $20,000 price tag on it. Let’s lower it. And you can make a quick comparison. So like a community like Fit for Service. Okay. Let’s say they charge you $12,000 for an entire year. Okay. Versus 30 days of treatment. What do I get for my 20K? I get some relationships with therapists that may or may not be what’s good for me. And I meet some people in the treatment center and we go to some meetings. That’s typically what we did. Maybe we did some equine therapy, maybe one or two times on a sound bed. Maybe I got a massage. Okay. That’s, and I was safe. There’s a lot of, there’s a lot of value in that they just kind of monitor you and make sure you’re safe for 30 days. Okay. That you’re abstinent. And then I look at what I got for fit for service. Okay. For one summit. So let’s say not even the whole 12k one summit like three thousand dollars four thousand dollars I got to if I wanted to meet him and talk to him personally but I got a speech and an example of how peter crone works dr kelly brogan came and worked with people and did an amazing little seminar we worked with steph and chris this stavano who are these amazing relationship coaches that taught us to healer divine masculine and divine feminine I mean people that charge thousands and thousands of dollars typically just to work and peter crone like if you look him up he’s like another he’s another healer that like tony robbins like you’d spend 50 to 100 000 to work with him one-on-one lucas mack who was just with jake paul doing breathwork before his last before his last fight. We sat with Boyd Varty, a lion tracker from South Africa, and Boyd told us stories around a fireside about our divine purpose. And to quote him, like one of the coolest things I’ve ever heard anybody say in my entire life is what Boyd said. He said, if I had to give you guys something to take away from what you’re looking for in this community. We are not looking for the meaning of life. We are looking for the feeling of being alive. After he’s telling us about what it’s like to track a lion and the difference between the way a leopard moves and a lion moves and sharing all these beautiful experiences as we’re in this surreal environment that feels like something out of a movie from when I was a kid. And that’s just some of the guests. And that’s not counting Caitlin Howe, Eric Godsey, Aubrey Marcus. And again, Again, fit for service is just one type of container where they’re using creativity and novelty to truly go outside of the box and find something that’s much more efficient. Yeah, treatment needs a new look, Mark.
Dr. Mark Leeds [46:24] Oh, yeah, definitely. Now, one thing, excuse me, suppose that there’s a, you know, parents that want to help their child to, you know, to recover and get off of drugs out of active addiction. And they’re looking into this. Say they listen to this recording and they’re trying to figure out what to do. Like, well, I could send them to another rehab. They’ve been to 10 rehabs in a row and they did great for a month and maybe a few weeks after and then relapsed. And, you know, so they’ve been in this pattern over and over again, go to rehab and say they’re going to stay clean or whatever, do great for a while, and then they don’t do it. And now these parents are considering like, well, you know, we’ve got another 30,000 in the bank. We could shop rehabs, find one for that $20,000 to $30,000 range and try it again. Maybe it’ll click this time. Or there’s this fit for service program. And maybe there’s other similar programs. We could send them on this recovery tracking, go around the world and go on a spiritual pilgrimage. There’s a whole variety of different things that they might try. But say fit for service. Would there be any way that they could there could be accountability like like suppose that there’s an event in Austin and they’re in like whatever other states say they’re in California they send they send their kid to Austin to go to a fit for service event and then they might think like well did we you know did we just spend a few thousand dollars now he’s hanging out with the fentanyl and crack cocaine crowd in Austin like how do we know he’s even going to this thing or actually getting anything out of it I mean that might be one thing in favor of rehab, you can call the rehab and say, you know, is my kid okay? Are they in their room right now?
Dustin Swartz [48:07] Well, that’s, well, again, I’m not trying to sell people on somebody that’s literally sticking needles in their arms should jump into a program like this right now. But back to what you were saying about the money, let’s say they have $30,000 in the bank. Okay. There’s, there’s better, I believe there’s better approaches and, you know, whether it’s you find a reasonable recovery coach to really help gauge the situation and then prepare somebody for something like fit for service. Fit for service in such a situation, I think, can be the goal, the carrot that you put at the end of the stick. Like you really show somebody what’s available if they’re willing to make small changes in their life and change some of those belief systems that the only answer is to stick a needle in their arm. OK, so maybe they do need to go to detox. Maybe they need to do something. But yeah, getting stuck in a treatment system will suck all the money available versus setting like specific goals and stipulations for like what you’re going to pay for as a family. OK, so my only goal is for my son to be prepared to go on to the next adventure, something that’s going to inspire hope and purpose in him. I appreciate your treatment center. I understand you have a 90 day program. I understand you have a five year program. Some people may need the 90 days, but then there also may be people that are that were through the system so many times that they’re looking for something. And after they stabilize and after they’ve found some accountability and proven themselves a little bit, this is the goal, like to join a community like this where there are people that are in. It’s kind of like it’s a pretty open container about what people have gone through. But, you know, like I would respect anybody’s anonymity and you could find something in this container.
Dr. Mark Leeds [50:03] And there might even be ways to customize the container. You know, like when you talk about like a container, it reminds me of the programming concept of object-oriented programming, that you have a class of objects and then you have another class that inherits from that, you know, that becomes a newer, better version of it, where you take that object and turn it into something new, but you still have all the essential characteristics of the original container. Say that someone in Fit for Service, maybe you, for example, that you come out of it and you get as much as you can out of it, and now it’s filtered through your experience, through your brain of how it fits in with your experiences. And maybe you decide to start something new similar to it. And not to say that, and of course, you probably still give credit to them and maybe even recommend Fit for Service as an additional thing. You can go through my program or your program could even work in conjunction. But say, like I’m imagining something like fit for service with sober companions or something, just for example, you know, like with the accountability, you know, to make it possible that people who still need the accountability early on are able to benefit from it.
Dustin Swartz [51:19] 100%. And I think you’ve kind of nailed it there that there should be some, there could be something in the middle. Something where right now treatment centers aren’t addressing this like it’s you’re in our system and you’ll just stay in our system until you’re fixed well maybe that’s not the answer maybe the answer is stabilization and then you take a step in another direction when I was sticking needles in my arm I didn’t have a lot of hope you know when I think about socializing I think about friends I think about community I think about what I lost not that I there was this hope that I would find it. Sometimes I’d come into 12 step meetings and I’d go into those rooms and I’d see a community of happy people. I’d be hopeful that maybe I could join them, but something like this, it’s almost assured that you get to join. It’s almost assured you’ll be welcome. It’s almost assured you’re going to have friends and you’re going to feel a part of that’s a whole other birthday party to look forward to. And it’s a rebirth. Without that hope and the purpose that comes along with that, I can’t see how many people would recover. So I think that’s a great way to implement it.
Dr. Mark Leeds [52:27] Yeah. Even just like what we started out with of taking circling, you know, the yoga of conversation or the art of deep conversation between two people and, you know, rather than the old style of like, or probably the current style of like, you go to rehab and you sit in a circle and everybody gets to talk and, you know, one person might hijack that whole meeting and just talk the whole time and nobody really knows what to say. Like, you know, do we talk, do I talk about my mother? So all the Freudian people are happy and, you know, it’s, you know, I don’t, I don’t know that everybody’s really comfortable in that, but then say you start with circling where you, I think, I mean, is it that you pair individuals up and then give them certain guidelines that they can follow and, you know, it’s encouraging a further depth of conversation.
Dustin Swartz [53:17] Yeah. So here, hold on one second. Okay. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Stop. Stop. You go out in the garage. I love you. Happy birthday. Sorry about that.
Dr. Mark Leeds [53:40] Oh, someone had a birthday?
Dustin Swartz [53:42] Yeah, it’s my dad’s birthday today.
Dr. Mark Leeds [53:45] Oh, today? The 17th?
Dustin Swartz [53:46] My dad’s birthday and yesterday was my mom’s birthday. Yeah, we got to honor her yesterday because she’s not with us anymore, but she’s with us.
Dr. Mark Leeds [53:58] Well, that’s a good month for birthdays.
Dustin Swartz [54:02] Absolutely. Absolutely. And. Sorry. So.
Dr. Mark Leeds [54:11] Yeah, circling in rehab of that. And I think that’s what it is. I haven’t done it yet, but it’s where people are put into situations where they are able to get into a deep conversation with another individual, not necessarily a circle or group.
Dustin Swartz [54:29] Well, I’m glad you bring that up because there’s something else that I like to highlight about some of the stuff I’ve learned recently and what I didn’t find in a lot of treatment centers. Every once in a while, you’d be in a treatment center where they would help you work on the things that I see as the greatest obstacles. OK, so I go I would go to a treatment center, whether it was all men or all women. There were certain things that I never worked on. So I never worked on my discomfort with the opposite sex. I never worked on my discomfort with groups of people that were already happy and healthy. There was no approach to the things that would throw me off the most. Sure, we would talk about like coping mechanisms for dealing with the desire to use, but how about like coping mechanisms to deal with when I’m in a group of people and I’m nervous and I feel like I’m on the outside. And those are the things that circle that you brought up with and these other modalities approach immediately and take all the pain, the fear, and the discomfort away from very quickly. And all of a sudden, an individual becomes empowered. And these things that would throw me off normally aren’t throwing me off so that I can focus more on my own health.
Dr. Mark Leeds [55:47] Yeah. And I think, I mean, it seems like, you know, with the circling thing, like nobody, there’s no one left behind, you know, like you’re saying, you know, they say people when they’re in recovery and they go to rehab or to a meeting and, you know, they’re told, you know, everybody feels like they’re isolated. You know, we all feel that way. And that’s just the disease of addiction talking, trying to make you feel like you’re an outsider. But then I think there, you know, there is a core of people that they’re all like talking type people. They like to talk. They like the sound of their own voice or maybe better at socializing just naturally, even with their addiction. And then you really do, I think, have people that are just kind of sit there quietly and maybe, you know, after like an AA or an NA meeting, they just kind of wander off and, you know, they really are actually isolated. It’s not just their perception. But, you know, but if you have a kind of a therapeutic thing, you know, like where you’re like, you know, and I know they have some bigger meetings, you know, where they break them up into smaller meetings. So you’re not like talking to 200 people, you’re talking to maybe five people, but it seems circling I think you’re breaking it down to two people talking at a time isn’t that is that how it works like that you’re actually talking to one other individual
Dustin Swartz [57:01] Typically in pods of two or three okay and sometimes sometimes there’s bigger groups too but a lot of the intensive work is one-on-one or with two a b and c yeah and I like how you brought that up about those that feel most isolated and sometimes it’s the one that talks the most too that actually does feel so isolated they just seem to connect and they seem to have no fear yeah but if I’m being totally honest about like what I would experience when I would go into these meetings and I would go into these treatment centers I’m thinking about women I’m thinking about like not being accepted by like the cool guys like those are the things that would come up and as long as that stuff was constantly being triggered I wasn’t getting a lot out of the therapy so empowering somebody making it so that’s not the issue that was extremely effective yeah sorry dogs the dogs are filled with love today and they’re just paying attention outside yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [58:10] So yeah anyway yeah I don’t want to keep you too long the dogs probably I want to go spend some time with you outside
Dustin Swartz [58:18] Yeah well next time we’ll we’ll make sure that I’m in a different setting I wasn’t sure how we were going to do I very much enjoy this and it’s yeah yeah
Dr. Mark Leeds [58:31] This is perfect yeah the it’s perfect so but yeah anyway but yeah yeah thank you thank you for joining me and talking about all this I mean there’s definitely a lot more to unpack with all the things we’ve talked about a lot more to go into
Dustin Swartz [58:48] So we’ll organize some next time we’ll come up with some new topics to address but thank you so much for your honor and your grace and your candor with the things that I hold dear to my heart. I see you as a friend, as a mentor, even if you find yourself to be an unlikely one because you are so humble with your energy. And as I’ve said many times before, Mark, you’re part hero, part friend. So you do good work, sir. And I hope to see more of it. I know I will. Thank you.
