How does a sales coach end up talking about recovery?
In April 2023, I spoke with Bart Nollenberger, a leadership and sales coach who works with companies and their leaders. Before that career, he sold cars, ran finance at a dealership, and spent years drinking and using cocaine. He has been sober from drugs and alcohol since 1985.
This is an archive episode, recorded when the show covered addiction and recovery broadly. We talked about where his drinking began and what has kept him well since.
Where did his drinking begin?
At 0:32, Bart described a childhood that looked perfect from the outside. His father owned a car dealership, and the family had money and friends. Yet, his father drank every day, and Bart remembers longing for attention he did not get at home.
He called it his own kind of attention deficit. At 14, he drank a goblet of whiskey and a goblet of vodka and walked to the local student center. For the first time, he said, people listened to him. Drinking, in his words, healed his low self-esteem.
What changed the course of his life?
From 3:41, Bart told the story of his first real mentor, a car dealer named Frank who told him that he believed in him. Bart went on to become the top salesman at that dealership. Unfortunately, his father died two months later of a stroke brought on by drinking, and Bart’s use of alcohol and cocaine grew heavier in the years that followed.
At 10:07, he described the night his boss walked into the bathroom at work and saw him with cocaine. He was fired the next morning. In fact, he said he felt almost relieved, because now he could get some help. He called the treatment center he had once walked out of, and he went in soon after.
There a counselor told him bluntly that he would not stay sober. The next morning, Bart found an old stash of cocaine in his pocket and flushed it down the toilet.
Can one compulsion give way to another?
Bart was candid about what came next. Later in that same account, he described years of struggle with pornography and what he calls sexual integrity, which took him far longer to work through than drugs and alcohol. What helped, he said, was the structure that had helped him early on. He went back to meetings at a faith-based recovery group, found a sponsor, and went to therapy. Today, in his words, he has peace.
Why does a child’s need for attention matter so much?
At 24:59, I picked up on Bart’s play on words. A child who does not get attention from parents can carry that as a form of trauma, and I said that in some cases it amounts to abuse. A baby who is fed but never held can die from lack of attention. So, a person can grow up in a wealthy home, with every advantage on the outside, and still miss the attention and love every child needs.
At 33:48, after Bart described finally hearing his mother say she loved him, I suggested he had broken a cycle passed down through generations.
What did a month alone in a cabin teach him?
At 27:49, Bart described an intensive that a Christian therapist designed for him. He spent thirty days alone in a small cabin on an island in Washington with a Bible and paper, and he met the therapist each morning. The assignment was to write about his mother, again and again, until something shifted. Then the subject became his father.
By the end, he said, he had forgiven his father, who had already died, and felt a bond with him. At 36:18, I said that this kind of retreat depends on deep trust in the person guiding it. Still, I admired that he did it the hard way, with real writing and real work.
Does spirituality have to mean religion?
Bart’s faith is central to his story, and he was clear that not every listener shares it. At 36:57, he named the two things that mattered most in his recovery, grit and God. Grit, in his view, meant refusing to give up, and recovery is where he learned to finish what he starts.
At 42:15, I spoke to listeners who turn away when they hear about someone else’s religion. In my view, spirituality matters whatever name a person gives to a higher power, and I described it as a place in the brain that addiction cannot touch, a safe place to start healing. Earlier, at 18:05, I had pointed out that my patients have liked different support groups, so there is something for everyone.
How do forgiveness, gratitude, and acceptance help?
At 44:49, Bart said that accepting people as they are, and lowering his expectations of them, has been the key to his peace. At 49:51, I mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy, and a patient who struggled to accept how her life had changed. Sometimes, I said, it is time to accept where we are and notice what is still good.
From 51:15, Bart described the gratitude journal he keeps every day. At 53:13, I mentioned research in which people who could forgive everyone in their lives reached a relaxed alpha brain state more easily. Interestingly, I said, I keep hearing the same three ideas over and over: forgiveness, gratitude, and acceptance.
At 54:23, Bart shared a habit for the end of each day. He asks himself what he did right, what he learned, and what he must change.
What can you do for someone who is not ready for help?
At 1:00:05, I said this is the hardest part of helping people. A person in what is called the precontemplation stage may not believe there is a problem at all, and almost nothing will help until that changes. That is why, I said, the medical field now talks about harm reduction, keeping people safe until they are ready.
Bart answered from his own experience at 1:01:33. He relapsed time and again before anything stuck, and he still hopes to reach the one person in a room who wants to change. From 1:02:41, we talked about sales, and I suggested that someone who wants to help others might learn to sell recovery to a person who is not ready yet. Of course, Bart agreed, and in his view good selling is influence with integrity.
Who is Bart Nollenberger?
Bart Nollenberger is a leadership coach and mental health coach who works with company leaders and with men who want to lead better at home. A former car salesman and dealership finance manager, he is a member of the John Maxwell team. His podcast is Keep the Change, and at the time of this conversation he was finishing a book of the same name about how the steps of recovery apply to everyday life. With his wife, he leads a recovery ministry at their church in Chandler, Arizona. His website is bartnollenberger.com.
What can listeners take away from this conversation?
Bart’s story shows how long real change can take, and how much of it happens after the drinking and drug use stop. Fortunately, the tools he described are open to almost anyone, from honest writing to daily gratitude and the forgiveness of others and of oneself.
How do I approach this today?
My thinking has kept developing since this conversation was recorded. Today my practice is built on one idea that runs through all of it: when the body has adapted to a substance, the safest way off is usually gradual, with the smallest steps the person’s nervous system can tolerate. Physical dependence is not addiction.
For alcohol dependence I use the Sinclair Method. The person takes naltrexone about an hour before drinking, and over time the drinking itself becomes less rewarding, so the urge fades gradually instead of being fought every day. It does not require stopping on day one, and it does not rely on willpower or meetings.
Like a slow taper, it lets the brain change at its own pace. For many people that makes it a more humane path than a sudden stop, which can also be medically dangerous for someone whose body depends on alcohol.
Call 911 or go to an emergency department if there is a seizure, confusion or hallucinations, or thoughts of self-harm. For thoughts of suicide or any mental health crisis, you can also call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
This page is educational. It is not medical advice, and listening to the episode or reading this page does not create a doctor-patient relationship. Decisions about starting, continuing, or tapering any medication should be made with your own physician.
Full transcript
A note from Dr. Leeds: my guests speak from their own experience and expertise, and the terminology they use is their own. Whatever the topic, this show holds to one distinction: physical dependence on a prescribed medication is not addiction. This transcript is educational content, not medical advice, and nothing here creates a doctor-patient relationship.
Read the full transcript (67 minutes)
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:00] Bart Nollenberger, welcome to the podcast.
Bart Nollenberger [00:03] Thank you, Dr. Leeds. It’s great to be here. This is so fun.
Dr. Mark Leeds [00:08] Thank you. So, yeah, so you’re a coach and not just any coach, not like the kind of coach. I mean, you may be the kind of coach that a regular person can hire for personal coaching, but I know you do like coaching on a higher level, like corporate coaching and success sales coaching. But I know you also have a connection to the world of addiction recovery. So yeah, tell me a little bit about your background.
Bart Nollenberger [00:32] Okay, well, thank you again for allowing me to do that. We all love to talk about ourselves, right? Well, my story is one of, it’s curious. And what I mean by that is I grew up in Toledo, Ohio, a little town called Perrysburg, Ohio, actually. My mom was a model. My dad was a car dealer. They were socialites in an upper middle class neighborhood. I had a great childhood on the surface. As a matter of fact, I ended up, my dad was one of my heroes, but I didn’t really have a great relationship with my dad. He wasn’t super, oh, I would say the words affectionate. My mom was kind of, for the people that have been around a while, a Joan Crawford type of person. She wanted to put the perfume on the pig. Everything looked good. House always looked good. Everything was good at home. But my dad was an alcoholic and as a matter of fact he drank daily and was not necessarily abusive to me but I know at times he was very I wouldn’t say abusive to my mom but I think he was very challenging to my mom and he would change when he drank so he would start drinking at noon then come home at four o’clock from his dealership and then sleep for about two hours and then start at it again. And of course, as a youngster, I didn’t see that, right? Everything’s perfect. We had money, we had boats, we had friends. And then somewhere in that period of time, I saw a few of his friends come over drunk. And I thought, oh, that’s interesting. And I was home alone a lot. And I just really, doctor, wanted attention through this period. I can tell you that from when I was very little, attention was very important to me. And I like to say I had ADD, but not just in terms of focus. I had ADD, attention deficit disorder, because I wanted somebody to notice me. And that was every bit of therapy I’ve done went back to the root of when I was a child and didn’t get picked up or didn’t get held. And again, it’s curious to me because I’ve heard a lot of worse stories, but I was longing for that. So because of that, I always wanted attention. I always wanted attention from girls when I was young. I wanted attention from my parents, but didn’t really get it. At about 13, I started getting curious about this thing called alcohol. And at 14, I poured a goblet of whiskey and a goblet of vodka. And I chugged both of them. And I walked downtown to our, what’s called the Beehive in Perrysburg, Ohio, and I chuckle only because of the seriousness of it all. I walked about a mile and a half, and obviously by the time I got to the Beehive, which is a student center, I was lit up. But for the first time in my life, people listened to me and laughed at me, I thought. And of course, they were laughing at me, not with me. That night, I got driven home by a friend, and I stumbled in the front door, and my parents were sitting on my bed, and they laughed. But it wouldn’t continue because I ended up wrecking five cars in high school. I drank all anytime I could. And doctor, I was a different person when I drank. And you hear that all the time on here. I was just different. And it healed my low self-esteem. It made me feel like I was somebody better and somebody different. And I never wanted to be me. I always loved sports and I was a lousy athlete. I got accolades a little bit from swimming. I was a pretty good swimmer, but I really didn’t like swimming much. I loved basketball and I was terrible. I tried out five years, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th. I never made the team. And I got my self-esteem from that. I got my self-worth from that. I didn’t get it from my parents. They didn’t tell me how great I was. I tried to get it from others. I was bullied. I had a lift. I had a big old nose. I had a crooked ear. And I felt that I was picked on a lot. I didn’t have any friends. So I’m sure a typical story for a lot of people. I wasn’t abused. I wasn’t beat up. I had loving, loving, loving grandparents. And but for some reason, chose to mask it all. And I was I was and I hate to say this because I don’t think I have said this like this before. I was a quintessential car salesman in the making. I mean, I was just full of it. I was charismatic. I could say anything, and I would think that you would believe me. So from that, I went one year of college and was on the swim team but never swam because my grades were too bad. And I floated off to Hollywood, Florida, and lifeguard on the beach for a year, but I got fired for drinking. Then I came back to my dad’s dealership, and he suggested selling cars. I did that, and I was lousy. But eventually one day I met a guy and his name was Frank. Now Frank was one of my dad’s friends. He was a car dealer. My dad didn’t want me to work for him. He wanted me to go work for somebody that gave more training. But when I worked for Frankie, Frank Kistler was kind of my, what I would say, John Wayne. I mean, he had, I always pictured him having a white horse and a big old hat. I mean, he was my hero and Frank for the first time when I was with Frank, And when the first time I saw him in a business setting, he said, I believe in you. Well, I thought, really? And from that, just that little bit of believing in me, I ended up being the top salesman at his dealership. And he came up to me afterward, took notice, came up and said, Bart, I’m so proud of you. Nobody had ever told me they were proud of me before. Now, they probably were, but I never heard it. But that’s what he said. And in that moment, I felt valued. Now, he told me, I’m going to tell your dad what a great job you’re doing. Remember, I’m always chasing my dad’s affection, even though I wasn’t really close to him for most of my years. But I was so excited for my dad to hear it from Frank. Unfortunately, two months later, my dad died of alcoholism. And he had actually his fourth stroke brought on by alcoholism. And I, at that stage of my life, was closer to him than ever. I spent two days with him next to him by his bed. And but I lost somebody that I had meant to had really subconsciously been a mentor to me and at that point not that long later my grandfather had also died so I lost these two men in my life my grandfather being more the mentor more of the confidant more of somebody that I would lean into than my dad but I had this picture of my dad because he was my dad So right after that started a path for me of my drug addiction. And it started the path of trying to be successful in the car business. And I hated the car business. But I chased my dad’s approval for decades because I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted to be just like him for whatever reason. Long story, I’ll try to get it a little bit more condensed here. But what happened in that journey was I found alcohol on a whole new level, and I found cocaine. And from that, I drank every day. I found acid. I found anything, Dr. Leeds, that would get me from here to there because I didn’t like here. I didn’t like me, and I didn’t like the journey that I was on in the moment. I wanted to get to there, whatever there was. I had goal sheets around me. I studied success. I studied Jim Rohn. I studied a young Tony Robbins. I studied anybody on success, but I, because I didn’t like me, I hated me. And from that though, I got successful and I had success in the industry. I got promoted and I continued on my journey of doing a lot of cocaine. As a matter of fact, I was pretty sickly. And one day, I think I was about 26 years old, I saw a guy who I partied with, and he looked great. And I said, dude, what happened to you? And he said, I went to rehab. I said, what’s that? He said it was a treatment center in Santa Cruz, California. And I said, well, that’s kind of cool. Give me the number. Not that I wanted to say that I needed it, but I did call them. And I sat down with Reba, and she said, you have to give us 30 days straight. Great. And I said, I can’t do that. I was making a quarter of a million dollars a year as 26 years old. I said, I can’t, that’s not going to happen. I’m too important. And she said, well, I can’t help you. I’ll have to go to an AA meeting or something. And I walked out of that meeting with Reba Frye because I was so internally just so broken. Okay. Fast forward. I have a daughter. Her name’s Tiffany. She was born April of 1984. And I would like to say my life changed when I had Tiffany. No. What happened was, excuse me, I love having a daughter, but I also continued to use cocaine. And excuse the cough as a matter of fact when she was born I remember seeing pictures I weighed 150 pounds today I’m a svelte 220 but I was sick and I remember my eyes sunk and I loved having a daughter she smelled so good I felt like I was going to be a great dad two hours later I went and did cocaine to party. In June of 1985, I was at work. It was actually June 14th, 1985. It was late at night. I thought everybody was gone. I snuck into the bathroom to do a line of cocaine. I was a finance manager at a car dealership. And I thought, because I thought everyone was gone, I was pretty open about it. But in came my boss behind me and I tried to hide it, but I knew he saw me. The next morning, I walked into work, and he said to me, Bart, we need to talk, and he proceeded to fire me. At that point, I almost felt relieved, because now I could get some help, and I got all my things together, got in the car, and didn’t say goodbye to anybody. Dr. Leeds, the next morning, I woke up, and I prayed to a God I did not know for help. And I was crying like a noob. And then I got this intuition about the universe, call it the grand overall designer, call it Jesus, but I got an intuition. And within two hours, I called Reba and she had one death. Within two weeks of being in that treatment center, I got hours and hours of therapy. But I also had a drill sergeant counselor by the name of Gus. And Gus sat me down one day. He looked at me. I was a narcissistic punk. And he looked at me and he said, Bart, you’re not going to stay sober. And I said, why not? He said, because you still have your house. You still have your daughter. You still have your life. At that point, I’m going to punch him in the nose. And then the next morning, get this. I had a meeting with Gus, another one. And I reached into my pocket and I had a stash of cocaine that I put in there months earlier. I looked at it and I opened it and get this. I flushed it down the toilet and I said, take that, Gus. Two weeks later, I graduated. And today, by the grace of God, and I do believe, I’ll tell you about that as we go. By the grace of God, one day at a time, I have 13,862 days, I think, of sobriety. I have 37 and a half years. The numbers might be a little off. One day at a time from drugs and alcohol. And I would like to say, hey, Matt, it worked perfectly. Life was great. I went to a lot of AA meetings. I got a sponsor. I got accountability partners. I did 90 meetings in 90 days. It got me momentum. I did the steps. I did what I was told. And I didn’t walk into bars. I got rid of all my old friends. And I stopped putting anything in my mouth, anything that would lead to me relapsing. See, when I went in, I didn’t think I was an alcoholic. I knew I was a cocaine addict. But when I got in there, I realized you don’t wreck five cars if you’re not an alcoholic. You don’t drink every day if you’re not an alcoholic. So I realized that I was indeed addicted to alcohol. And I realized in my journey, the one I was on, that I couldn’t touch it again. And that’s why I’ve gotten 37 and a half years, because I made the decision to change my life. Unfortunately, I flipped addictions. And my addiction that I flipped was based on my being a narcissistic pig. And I had a pornography and sexual integrity issue addiction. And that went on for a long, long, long time. And I finally got to the point where I hated it so much that I reestablished meetings. I went to a program called Celebrate Recovery. I got a sponsor for that addiction. I went to meetings for that. I talked to my, I had accountability partners. I journaled. I went to therapy. I spent time in solitude. All of that journey led me today where I have some freedom from that as well. Took a lot longer than drugs and alcohol. But I’ve got to tell you today, Dr. Leeds, I have peace. And I’ve got a podcast called Keep the Change. And I talked about going from the pit, which was that brokenness. Yes, it was the brokenness of being 150 pounds in a rehab center. But it was also the brokenness of almost losing my marriage because of the fact that I couldn’t stay away from attention grabbing. And the result today is I’ve got freedom from that. I’ve got awareness of that. And I make my story clear to others so they know there’s peace at the other side of the pit. And I’m really proud of that. Today, I can tell you that Mary and I, my wife of eight years, who, by the way, between Mary and I, we have 10 kids and 12 grandkids. We are so blessed. Today, by the grace of God, I have an incredible family. I’ve got an incredible wife. Her and I do ministry together at a program called Celebrate Recovery, which we started at our church in Chandler, Arizona, about almost 12 months ago. Not quite, but we’ve been working on it for about five years. And I will tell you that the spiritual part of my journey, not everybody listening believes this, but it is my belief. I’m a person of faith. I was raised Unitarian. And what that is, I have no idea. But when I became sober, all I knew is they told me, step one, admit you’re powerless and your life had become unmanageable. I did that. Step two, come to believe that a power greater than yourselves could restore you to sanity. I was insane. I was nuts. I couldn’t stop doing my addiction. I couldn’t stop chasing women. I couldn’t stop using drugs and alcohol. I couldn’t stop. And I realized a power greater than myself would restore me to sanity. I didn’t know who that was, but I prayed to something. And step three came to believe that made the decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God. Well, I knew that in theory, but I didn’t always do it. But today I get it. 10 years after I got sober, doing steps, getting on my knees every day, having a sponsor, doing what I was told. 10 years after I got sober, I ran into a church. And again, it’s my belief. It’s not everybody’s, but I know what I know. And I drove by a church every day in Santa Cruz, California. It was called Santa Cruz Bible. And I thought they have nice cars in the driveway. And I thought that’s got to be a cool place to go because my money was my God. And I drove in, I heard a guy named Chip Ingram talk. And from then God touched my heart. Jesus pulled me in. I had no reason to follow Jesus. My parents didn’t, but my grandparents did. And subconsciously and through their prayers, I believe that’s why I’m here right now. And that journey started 10 years after I got sober, and it’s deeply a huge piece of what my mission and my ministry and my purpose is today. So that’s the story.
Dr. Mark Leeds [18:05] Well, thank you. That’s an incredible story. And yeah, I know I’ve had some patients that really, they love Celebrate Recovery. Some love AA, Alcoholics Anonymous. Some people hate Alcoholics Anonymous. But I also have some patients that love SMART Recovery. So, you know, there’s something for everyone. You know, if someone’s a Christian or even I know Celebrate Recovery, you don’t have to be a Christian to go. So, I mean, if someone just wants to go to something spiritual, but not holding you to the 12 steps and being, and I know that Celebrate Recovery is also open to people that get medical treatment for addiction, which AA might not be as much as open about that. And you know SMART Recovery is good also and I think there’s even some other ones out there so there’s a lot of great options but yeah I’ve heard some great things about Celebrate Recovery
Bart Nollenberger [18:57] Yeah it’s been you know it was just it became one day I was sitting in my backyard and Dr. Leeds I’d always been a dreamer I always thought man I’m going to speak all over the country I’m a speaker I’m a trainer I’m a coach that’s what I do now I’m a mental health coach I do leadership coaching is my main focus. I help companies, yes, their leaders become great leaders, but I also help men become great leaders at home and in their marriages and in their journeys. It’s my mission. But anyhow, as I’m out there, I got that intuition to start this Celebrate Recovery. And I didn’t think I’d be known for my recovery story, right? But you never know where you’re going to be used. There is a saying that to whom much is given, much is required. And I hope that I’m listening to that and being the best conduit to somebody who’s watching and said, man, if that guy can do it, five grand a month, cocaine habit, acid, all that. And today I can say I’ve got that kind of freedom. You can do it.
Dr. Mark Leeds [20:02] Yeah. Yeah, that does help, I think, a lot. You know, when someone is taking a drug and they think, you know, people that drink, you know, that’s one thing, people that use cocaine, you know, but if I use both together or if I used, you know, maybe the people out there using fentanyl, they feel it’s impossible. You know, this is a whole new different drug that no one else has experienced recovering from or crack. You know, back in the 80s, there was probably people thinking that this is impossible to quit. There’s nothing that a person can’t quit. But it does help to hear the story from someone that, you know, like when you mix cocaine and alcohol together, it forms a new molecule like cocaethylene, which is more deadly, more addicting, longer lasting than either cocaine or alcohol separately. I think it does help for someone to hear, you know, obviously, you know, a story that matches somewhat with their own to say, like, wow, he really did do it. And I’m going through the same thing. Yeah.
Bart Nollenberger [20:56] And, you know, we do. I think there’s so much of this, doctor, that to me had to be change my thinking, change my life. Right. That I was valued, that I was loved, that I was a good person, that I had that my intent that, you know, so many times we beat ourselves up, especially as addicts. Why did I do that? Even non-addicts do that, but we tend to do that. There’s a root problem. For me, it was always attention. I got attention using. And then I got more and more and more and more attention. I got attention with my sexual integrity garbage. But when I realized that I was valued, that I was loved, that I could love myself, that’s when it didn’t happen immediately. It took me decades to really get it. But when I really got it, that’s the result of who I am now. You know I’m a dreamer man I mean I can sit around and think oh yeah we were talking about Florida before we got together before we got live and I dream about being on Siesta Key Beach and that what I realized is right now is a really incredible place right now has a special moment so for me it’s almost a constant struggle frankly but I have to be in the now and then just see the graciousness of now. Because when I start thinking about I could have this, or it could be that, I’m taking myself out of who I really am, my true self. So for me, doctor, it was really loving my true self, not in an arrogant way, in a humility way, that I’m broken, but I’m loved, and that I’m a good person and I’m about, we all have to know that when we can love on ourselves for who we are authentically, then we become so much a conduit to let love in and then put love out to other people. And that’s hopefully what I do, that I can love me and thus I can love you and then open it up that you can love me and that maybe somebody sees the story of what I’ve done and say, you know what? He came from a business world and now he’s talking love. He comes from a business world and now he’s talking about serving people at a big level. He comes from a business world and he’s talking about humility and grace. You know what? Every leader I work with has something going on, right? Either they’re mean to their wife or they kick their dog or they’re drinking that night or they’re doing fentanyl on the side, whatever it is. They all have something. We all have something we want to work on. And when we get that we’re all hurting and that we get the experience that you have that you can help others with, that I have that I can help others with, that’s our true north. That’s where I have the biggest impact. But I will say this and then let you go. I’ve got a buddy of mine in my Celebrate Recovery who was on the street two years ago with fentanyl under a bridge. So we’ve got, he’s just the one, he’s on my leadership team, so I bring him up. But he’s gonna be the leader of this Celebrate Recovery, the leader in our position within a year or two. And I will tell you that it’s a perfect example, like you said, of getting to the other side. We can get through this, But whatever we choose to do in terms of recovery, we have to make sure that we stay consistent with it and commit to it, right? Those two words, commit and get consistent. And communicate with people around us, like communicate with an accountability team. Have a who team around us of brothers and sisters that will listen to us, that we can talk about it, that we can be true. We’re only as sick as our secrets. So commitment, consistency, communicate are a huge part of being all we can be on this journey.
Dr. Mark Leeds [24:59] Yeah. Yeah. And I like the play of words with attention deficit disorder, that ADD, that, you know, that the condition is about a person not being able to focus and not having attention themselves. But I like how you kind of flipped it around that you had an attention deficit, that you needed attention from your family growing up and you weren’t getting the attention that you needed. And I think sometimes people don’t realize that’s a form of trauma and maybe even in some cases abuse, you know, that maybe the parents are, you know, self-focused. Maybe they’re narcissistic people or maybe they’re focused on their own careers or doing something. And they don’t really, you know, for whatever reason, you know, they don’t give their children the attention they deserve. And that can, I mean, that can kill a baby. That was actually a story in that there was a movie on, it was called Old. I don’t know if you saw that, like where these people go on this beach where they age really fast. So a weird movie. But there’s a scene where the girl has a baby and the baby ages really fast and it suddenly dies. And they say, well, the baby died because things happened so fast. It never got enough attention. It just died from lack of attention. Nobody touched the baby or held it or anything. But this all happened so quickly because of the weird thing in the movie, how things are moving so quickly. But, yeah, if a baby is born, you put it down and hook it up to nutrition, but nobody holds it or gives it attention or plays with it or talks to it’ll die from lack of attention. And kids go through that. They suffer. It’s traumatic. It’s abusive. For kids not to get the attention they need growing up. And, you know, that’s, you know, so a person could grow up in a really wealthy home, appearing from the outside to have everything in the world, you know, every advantage in the world, but you need to have attention and love from your family.
Bart Nollenberger [26:53] Yeah. You know, I think you said it so well, and thank you for that, was, you know, you could grow up with narcissistic parents. And I love my parents, right? My dad and I weren’t close, as I said, and I did go through a lot of therapy about my dad. But get this happened. I was previously married. And I looked one day, I went to a therapist, Dr. Brian in Washington. And I sat down with Dr. Brian, and I was just in trauma. And I was in trauma, frankly, with my sexual integrity issues. I just couldn’t break them. And Dr. Brian said, we need to get to the root of this. So he said, I want you to do an intensive program. You’ll appreciate this. And he said, and I said, what’s an intensive? And I always tell people, be careful if your therapist tells you need to do intensive, right? But I said, yes, because I wanted help. I was broken. Get this doctor. He had a cabin in the woods. It was really not a cabin. It was a shack in Oak Harbor, Washington. And it was on an island. It was about 15 minutes from his office and about probably 10 minutes from where I lived at the time. And he said, you’re going to go in the cabin for 30 days off the grid, and you’re going to take a Bible, pens, and paper, and that’s it. He was a Christian therapist. And he said, you’ll have enough food in the refrigerator for 30 days. No human contact, he said, except for me. So I would go to his office at eight, meet with him till nine, head off to that cabin for the 23 hours. I couldn’t go anywhere, right back to the cabin. And on weekends, I was there 24 hours by myself. And what he had me do, first of all, is, and I read all the New Testament in that. I was kind of young to the faith, but I read all the New Testament. But what he also had me do is he said, I want you to write. And there was a fireplace and a small round table and a real skinny bed and a shower or a bathtub and the little kitchen and that’s it and it had cracks in the walls where the wind would blow through the side it was just not fun but I started writing he said the first thing I want you to do is write your mama now my mom died at 97 and my mom and I were very tight when she died in the last 10, 15 years. I mean, she’s my hero. And I wrote about her, though, because, you know, she was a socialite. She was a model. We had more mirrors in our house than most houses have on the block. I mean, any place you’d look, we had a mirror, right? And I always was in the habit, doctor, of looking in the mirror. My self-worth, and I still struggle with this, which is harder when you get older was determined by how well I looked. And I wouldn’t go in the military even though I wanted to fly because I don’t want to cut my hair. I mean, that sickness of all that, it’s just, I’m almost ashamed to say it. But I wrote about her, and I wrote about her narcissism, and I wrote about her not being affectionate. And I wrote about, for eight days, I’d write, and then Brian would say, okay, do it again. And then I’d go back to the cabin and write, and he’d say, do it again. And then I’d write, and he’d say, do it again. And finally, after eight days and a lot of therapy on this, he said, how do you feel? I said, I feel good. I love my mom. And it did change everything. Then he said, great. Now write about your dad. I wrote about my dad’s not really, you know, frankly, I was five years younger than my brother. I thought it was a mistake. My dad really never went to my sporting events, ever, except the last one. And I might tell you about that, but he did show up for the last one. It was the best day of my life. But he never came to my young events. And he wouldn’t take me fishing. He didn’t take me to baseball games, none of that. My grandfather did all that. And I wrote about him. I’d write for hours, and then I’d go see Dr. Brian, and he’d say, do it again. Day after day after day. And finally, after six, seven days of that, I forgave him. And we had this bond. He was dead then, but we had a bond. Then I wrote about my brother. My brother was five years older, better looking, better athlete. He’s super successful business-wise. He’s a great family man. He’s definitely my best friend. And I wrote about him. But I was jealous of him. And I did that for four or five days and got through that. And it was in that time, hanging out with me and my higher power, that there were some shifts, there were some doors that opened. And you’re so right about them being narcissistic. They didn’t know any different. And my mom, as I land this part, my mom would never say I love you. But she would say love to you. Right? And I had this floppy hair, and she’d lift it up and give me a kiss on the forehead. I don’t remember a hug. I don’t remember sitting on her lap. I don’t remember her sitting in bed reading to me. She might have, but I don’t remember it. And one day, as we got older, I said, Mom, I love you. And I kept saying it over and over again. And then one day she said, Bart, I love you. And she would never, ever leave a conversation without saying that, nor would I. So it was kind of like I changed her pattern. I changed her thinking. She was able to get out of that self and just pour through. And she was incredible at that. And I have to tell you, for the believers in the room, because there’s believers, my mom was not a believer. And a week before she died, some of you won’t get this. Some of you will say, wow. A week before she died, I did the believer’s prayer over her after trying for years. And she came to Christ a week before she passed. So frankly, that was one of my greatest victories that God has put in front of me. That and having my sons, even though up to this marriage, I’ve been not very good at marriage, but my sons saw something in me and saw my marriage today and how loving it is. And two of my sons have asked me to officiate their weddings. Oh, a wretch like me. I talked to our church last week and I’ve talked to him a year ago about marriage. Isn’t that funny how God can take us from the pit to peace and use us?
Dr. Mark Leeds [33:48] Oh, well, it sounds like with your mother that maybe that’s something that she got from her parents, like something that was passed down of like of feeling uncomfortable saying you love someone. And it’s like you gave her permission to say it and you broke a cycle, you know, a cycle that had been passed down from generation to generation. You finally broke that cycle that it’s OK to hug your children and tell them you love them and you’re proud of them, which is really that’s really important to make sure they hear that at some point.
Bart Nollenberger [34:16] Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting. My kids went through the trauma of divorce from their mother and I. And I even though we pulled apart during this not really that I have four of them by birth and at that time the twins I had twins that lived with me every weekend but it’s traumatic right it just is and it affects relationships but I can tell you today because I would never give up I didn’t give up on my mom’s relationship ever but I didn’t give up on my kids either and today I would tell you that we have an incredible relationship and I would not be lying if I use the word incredible. And the gift that I’ve got with these people, they’re my friends. I love them. I respect them. I learn from them. And I’ve got four kids with four grandkids by birth. I already told you about the six inherited kids that Mary gave me and eight grandkids on her side that she gave me. So I’ve just got this incredible family. And I don’t think that happens by accident. I think it took work, but I also think that I would not ever give up. My daughter’s, sorry about the dogs, but there you go, my life. My daughter told me one day, you call me more than anybody else. And that was one of those great gifts. So one thing about podcasts, you never know, right, doctor? Oh, yeah. I don’t have kids at home, but I have two dogs and one of them is a barker. So I apologize for that in the background.
Dr. Mark Leeds [35:46] Oh, that’s okay. I once did a podcast interview where the guest, she said, you know, we have to be careful not to wake up the dog. You know, if that dog wakes up, he’s going to really start barking. And then while we’re talking, this dog quietly walks behind her. I’m like, well, there’s the dog right there. She’s like, no, that’s a good, that’s a quiet dog. You don’t want to wake up the other dog.
Bart Nollenberger [36:06] Oh, that’s funny. Yeah, I’ve got a little one and a big one. And when the little one barks, why do little dogs bark? I think they need therapy. But the big one will follow the lead. So back to why we’re here.
Dr. Mark Leeds [36:18] Yeah. Yeah. I love the cabin therapy. Although for someone to do that, you’d have to like, obviously, you know, of course, really trust, you know, you don’t want to like have just anyone tell you, like, come to my cabin in the woods and I’ll put you there for a week. But that’s incredible. And that sounds like the kind of thing that people would probably like pay a lot of money for, like, you know, cabin therapy, you know, go right. But, you know, these days they’d probably try to make it easy and say, like, we’re going going to go take some psychedelics and go on some, you know, whatever vision quest journey. But you did it the hard way. You did it kind of the real way, like you actually did the writing and the work in there.
Bart Nollenberger [36:57] Yeah. You know, that’s so true. And I was thinking about this before I met with you this morning. There’s, you know, again, God is that topic that some people just don’t want to talk about. And then there’s other people like me that are bad. I can talk about God all day long. And I’m one of those annoying people. But, you know, look at God, whatever way you look at God, the grand overall designer, let’s say. Right. But the there’s two things, I believe, frankly, that have had more impact on my going from pit to peace than anything else. And that is grit and God and not in that order. And the grit was I was not going to give up. And I’d always, frankly, Dr. Brian, it’s funny because, I mean, Dr. Leeds, I’m calling you Dr. Brian. It’s funny because I have quit things in my life. In my younger years, I would try something and quit it. Today, I finish. You know why I finish? Because I learned how to finish in recovery. In other words, I learned how to stay 30 days. I learned how to stay sober one day at a time, And I transfer that to my life today. I learned how to get freedom from the sexual integrity issues. And because of that, there’s nobody, my thinking’s different. There’s nobody that can say, well, you’re a quitter. No, I’m not. I finish. And it ain’t over yet. That’s why every day has its own journey. And every day has, everybody has our struggles. But every day has its one day at a time so that we can be in peace. I love living in the now because that’s where my peace comes from now. That’s the power of it. But it’s because of that, of my spiritual peace and the grit. But I learned a lot in that cabin. But frankly, you know what’s interesting? Is in that cabin, that 30 days in the cabin, which was miserable at about day 28. I didn’t get it all in 30 days. Two days later, I had a relationship breakup. I mean, it was weird. But today, what’s it been? I think it was 2005 when I went to that cabin. And today, what, 18 years later, I still get lessons from that cabin. I still think, oh, yeah. So the residual and the drip of learning that came from that cabin is unexplainable. It just keeps happening. Who I am today, a large part is because of that time in that cabin.
Dr. Mark Leeds [39:38] Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s incredible. And that would, you know, if people can can find some equivalent to that, you know, a safe equivalent, you know, with someone trusted, you know, maybe not that exact experience. But, you know, there are experiences like that, you know, that life changing that come back to you. And, you know, exactly what you said, you might not have realized all of it at the time, but you look back on it. You’re like, wow, you know, I just learned something new that I didn’t know that I had learned then.
Bart Nollenberger [40:08] Amen. So true. And I don’t you know, you’re a learner. You don’t get to where you are because you’re not a learner. And I found that, you know, I’m not an academic. I just barely got through high school and one year of college. But I spend every day learning and studying me, studying leadership, studying thinking, studying how to be a better Bart so I can be a better servant to those people that I come in contact with. And, you know, it goes back to that grit. I will not give up. I’m in a journey where many people retire. And I am a space in time when many people retire. And for me, it’s a whole new journey. I get to I love working, especially with men. And helping them be better at home, man. Or better in the marketplace. And be better leaders. And be better servants. And be better listeners. It’s crazy. And you know what’s fascinating, too? I have a podcast I told you about. But as a podcaster, I’ve learned how to listen. And you get this because you’re good at it. I’ve learned how to listen so much better. I’ve learned how to ask better questions with no intentionality. So much better. And so I take that podcast experience and it’s worked in my coaching experience. Isn’t it so true?
Dr. Mark Leeds [41:27] Oh, yeah. It’s incredible. It’s like first you get to talk to people you would never talk to because without podcasting, why would we be talking otherwise? Like I’m just going to call you out of the blue and say, tell me your story. Yeah.
Bart Nollenberger [41:43] I’m an ex-car salesman. Why would a DO talk to me? But the friendships that we get from this and the richness and the way we fill each other up, even in little ways. I mean, you’ll fill me up in bigger ways maybe than I’ll fill you. But the reality is the richness of that, whatever we can do to connect, this to me is just I love doing this. Not about the reward, but the journey, the experience of getting to know you and be able to do this. It’s so powerful to me.
Dr. Mark Leeds [42:15] Yeah yeah and one thing I wanted to talk about for a second for anybody listening that you know I know sometimes people you know in doctor visits counseling therapy when they hear certain things about about a religion you know they might instantly turn off and say no no that’s not my religion it’s like and you know it hopefully people can like be open-minded and say like well it may not be my religion but definitely there’s something about spirituality And if people want to think about it scientifically, you know, there’s something in the brain that’s tuned into spirituality and it’s walled off from addiction. Addiction can’t touch that. It’s a safe place where, you know, we can. That’s definitely a place for healing and recovery of starting at the point of spirituality. So whether someone wants to call God, Allah, God, Odin, you know, whatever. We’re watching a Viking show. That’s why I said Odin. But, you know, which is actually the Vikings and the Christians and the pagans and all this stuff. And they’re really not that different. It’s just they’re just calling their gods by different names. But, yeah, but hopefully people aren’t turned off by that, you know, because, you know, I know there’s a lot of history behind religion, but spirituality is important. And, you know, like so, you know, if a person can, you know, if you if you know, you call God and part of God is Jesus, there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, you know, we’re living in the 21st century. You know, the Catholic Church has changed. You know, not that you’re Catholic, but, you know, the church, you know, it’s in fact, I have a thing on my screen. I was I was thinking about when you mentioned Celebrate Recovery and I was thinking and you said something about founding. I guess you founded a chapter of it. I was thinking for a second. Did you found the whole thing? I got to look this up. Are you the founder of the supper? No, no. So I was looking it up and I see it’s Rick Warren was a co-founder with another guy. And then I’m like, didn’t Rick Warren write some book? And I look up the book and then it reminded me there’s that story from the news of that woman who was like some killer was going to kill her. You know, the kidnapper guy was in her house and he was going to murder her. And she started talking about his book, The Purpose Driven Life. Yes. It saved her, you know, that he, I guess, read the book with her and somehow convinced him not to kill her. And I don’t know if I’m saying the story right. But, you know, the news outlets were interviewing Rick Warren. Yes. Yes. I mean, there’s something to that. Something happened there. This woman’s life was saved, and she wasn’t trying to sell the book. She was just saying, I read the book. I love it. This guy wrote a great book, and I shared it with this other guy, and he didn’t kill me.
Bart Nollenberger [44:49] There’s so many nuggets there, isn’t there? Oh, my gosh. So think about it, folks. As you’re listening, just go buy that book and have it next to your bed stand in case somebody breaks in. We’re kidding. But there is something about that. And I have to be clear. When I got sober again, I was broken. I was a new ager. And that doesn’t mean I was broken. I was looking for what the worst spirit was, right? I’d sit on a lifeguard stand. I lived in Santa Cruz, California, and just pray to something. I just didn’t know who I was praying to. And the first 10 years of sobriety, that’s what I did. Look, listen to the steps. See, the steps, frankly, are the best success principles in the world. Step one is admit. I mean, listen to that. When you and I admit that there’s such power in that, step two came to believe. Now, as Dr. Leeds said, that could be a number of things. For me at that time, I didn’t know what I believed, but I believed there was a higher power that came to believe that a power greater than me could restore me to sanity. Dude, I talked to that higher power all the time. I didn’t know who it was, nor she or it. Didn’t know. Didn’t know if it was a cloud in the air. Just threw it out there. And step three, made a decision, is what AA, NA, and all the other A’s say, to turn our will and our life over to a power greater than ourselves. I mean, that’s, dude, let, when you and I can make that decision to say, here you go, that was the start of recovery for me. I realized I couldn’t do this on my own one second at a time. But when I gave it up, gave it away, and did what I was supposed to do, that’s when the slow drip started to happen. So thank you for saying that. Again, I didn’t pick this journey. It picked me, as strange as that sounds. I picked recovery. I picked going to that rehab center. But I didn’t pick going to that church, right? I didn’t like Bible thumpers, and I didn’t know how to say thees and thous. And I couldn’t have gone to a church if there was thees and thous and hymnals going on in booths. I went to one where the pastor was hip, the music was rock, and I felt like I was at home. That’s what I needed. But here’s the deal. I have four kids. They don’t all believe what I believe, but they all love. And they’re massive love about love. And that, to me, is the message that they’re so good at sending. And that no matter what we look at, it’s all about love. It’s all about, again, loving ourselves, loving our neighbor as ourselves, and also with that loving of ourselves and loving others, that’s when we can make a huge difference on this planet, man. You and I get that everything that you and I get in trouble with is we have, we don’t accept other people, and we have high expectations, right? So if I expect something of my neighbor to keep her dog off my lawn, then I start getting angry about that if I can’t accept it. But acceptance and expectations have been the key to me and my peace. I think it’s page 407 in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous says, acceptance was the key to my sobriety. It was a key to my peace. Unless I can accept people, places, and things as exactly the way they’re supposed to be, I cannot live in peace. And to me, what if every human being could lower their expectations or at least up their acceptance? Yeah. I’m a member of the John Maxwell team, and that means that I’m a part of a team that’s got 40. It’s actually called Maxwell Leadership today. John Maxwell founded it. Mark Cole is the CEO. There’s over 40, excuse me, 46 countries and, excuse me, 146 countries represented and 30 or 44,000 of us. Let me get this straight. So there’s 44,164 countries. There we go. And all of us are diverse. They’re not all believers in Christ. We’ve got people from Muslim countries. We have people from Hindu countries. We’ve got this diversity, but we all, and a lot of people believe in Jesus and a lot of people that believe in, that are New Agers, but they all come together in unity and love and diversity. And I would tell you, these people are game changers in their own little world because of that. It’s been a, It’s been a remarkable experience.
Dr. Mark Leeds [49:51] Yeah. Yeah, that’s, yeah, when you mentioned acceptance, and there’s actually like a formal therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy. And, but that’s a huge thing, you know, like, so like, because I’ve heard people say like, like there was a patient that was really struggling with the fact that her life had changed, you know, over years of drug dependence. Is that she wasn’t the person she used to be before she, you know, before she started and she just really couldn’t accept that. Sorry, there’s like a feedback thing happened in my headphones. She used to, you know, look a certain way, have a lot of friends, you know, be kind of the center of attention and have all this great stuff going on. And now she’s like, you know, I look in the mirror, I don’t see that same person. My friends have all gone. And, you know, And that’s what I wanted to say is like, well, maybe it’s just at this point, it’s time to accept, you know, you have all your limbs, you’re walking around, you’re alive, you’re breathing. You know, you’re not, there’s a lot of good things, a lot of negative things that aren’t happening, a lot of good things going on for you. And, you know, and maybe it’s just for all of us time to accept, you know, we’re at a certain place right now, you know, maybe we’re not what we really wish we could be. You know, maybe, I guess there isn’t there’s a prayer and recovery about that. The serenity prayer about acceptance.
Bart Nollenberger [51:15] Yes. And God, grant me the… This is so powerful. I learned this before I ever knew Jesus. So it’s a universal prayer. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And I interviewed a friend of mine, a John Maxwell partner of mine, and her name’s Regina Bryan and she’s just at peace. And I don’t know her, she hasn’t had the addiction issues that I’ve had, but I really admire her peace. And I asked her, why are you so at peace? And she said, every day for the last 20 years, I wrote a grateful journal. And I write in my journal about what I’m grateful for. And I write it out. And I thought, oh my gosh. Because when we write about what we’re grateful for in the now, not what we don’t have. I’m talking to Bart here. When we write about what we have, not what we don’t have, and what we’re grateful for, it changes the whole dynamic of our thinking. It changes our cellular structure. Maybe I’m not right about that, but you’ll tell me. But it changes everything. When we’re focusing on what we’re grateful for, we’re not being we’re not living in reduced expectations we’re just grateful for the moment we’re grateful for what we have and I’ve got a grateful journal every day a journal that I do here every day and it says today I’m thankful for I have to remember what I’m thankful for and when I even ask that question changes my whole structure of who I am in that moment so that to me has been a huge part and if we all kind of looked at what we’re grateful for and what we’re thankful for and what we’ve got blessings for we’ve got something everybody has something right
Dr. Mark Leeds [53:13] Yeah yeah just you had mentioned changing your cellular structure that I don’t know about but there are definitely some scientific studies specifically about forgiveness which you talked about in the cabin you know you finally were able to through a lot of work you forgave your mother you forgave your father. I don’t know if you had mentioned it, if you’d forgiven yourself for what you’d done to yourself. But forgiveness is scientifically proven to help people get into a, you know, they studied alpha waves, you know, like hooking people up to monitors and trying to help them meditate and get their brains into an alpha state of relaxation. And forgiveness, the act of being able to forgive everybody in your life was able to, people that could do that were able to achieve the alpha state much faster and easier. So they were actually able to measure the benefit of forgiveness. So forgiveness, the other one you’re talking about, gratitude, forgiveness, gratitude, acceptance, you know, maybe those are like the three major pillars of whatever, you know, I don’t want to say that’s the center of recovery, but that seems to be this, I keep hearing those things over and over again, forgiveness, gratitude, acceptance.
Bart Nollenberger [54:23] Yeah, isn’t that, it’s funny that I would tell you about cellular structure. I don’t know that’s entirely true, but I know I changed, right? So here’s what I know too, that if we have that, the blessings, the thankfulness, we change. Craig Groeschel wrote a book, Winning the War in Your Mind. And it’s a great book if you get an opportunity to read it. And in that, he just talks about so many times, I mean, in the Bible, 365 times God says he loves us. Now, I know it’s hard to believe with all the stuff going on in the world, but that’s a different story. We are loved. And when we get that we’re loved, it does change us. You asked about, you said, you don’t know if I’ve forgiven myself. I couldn’t be here in front of you, sir, if I didn’t love myself, right? It wouldn’t have happened. I had to forgive myself. Now, there’s three questions I ask myself every day, because I do also beat myself up. I don’t know if anybody can relate to that. But here’s the three questions. Number one, what did I do right today? I’ve got to consistently remind myself of what I did right, not what I did stupid. I have a master’s of stupidity. I have a doctorate in dumbness. So I don’t have a history in the past of doing things right. But when I remind myself of what I did right, it changes everything. Next question, what did I learn? John Maxwell has a book that is sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. And learners are earners. Learners really is what learning is what growth is all about. And number three, what must I change? Tony Robbins says when we must change something, when we put that must in there, we will. And what must I change? And for me, my book, I’ve got a book coming out and it’ll be out in the next couple of weeks or not true, next couple of months. And it’s called Keep the Change. And it’s 12 chapters of recovery and how recovery applies to the normal person’s life, to the addict’s life, and to a father, a mother, a leader. It applies every step. Admit. Come to believe in something. Make a decision. Do an inventory of ourselves. Those are just four steps of the recovery journey that, again, are life lessons that can change us. I know it did for me. So I’m excited about putting that book out there mainstream and talking to the normal people about the steps to recovery are great steps to success, great spiritual steps if one chooses to.
Dr. Mark Leeds [56:59] Yeah. Yeah, that’s – yeah, and that’s – yeah, the steps are great. I know some people kind of don’t like the idea of having to do homework. You know, you can go into it.
Bart Nollenberger [57:11] Amen.
Dr. Mark Leeds [57:13] I mean, it’s like you can either do drugs and drink or do homework. And, you know, so that scares people away a little bit. But, yeah, I mean, it’s important. And, you know, and once you start doing that work, I mean, things change. I mean, it’s important to, you know, and creativity is also important. You know, talking about all these things to catch up, what do we have so far? We have forgiveness, acceptance, gratitude, love. That was the one that, you know, that you brought up just now. But I think also creative, you know, creating something, you know, and when you write, when you write about yourself, when you learn about yourself, learning and creativity go together. You know, you’re creating, you created a book, you created something that didn’t exist. And now you’re going to put this thing out in the world that now suddenly there’s an incredible book that is going to resonate with some people. And, you know, and so, you know, someone that thinks like, oh, I don’t want to have to do the steps and the work and writing and working on myself, working on yourself is an opportunity to create something new and, you know, and maybe to help somebody else, you know, or help a lot of people.
Bart Nollenberger [58:21] Well, you know, you and I get it because you’re very disciplined in your studies. Nobody, I get it. I wasn’t very good in school, but I’ve learned to be a studier outside of school. But what I really know, too, is that sometimes I’ve got to get uncomfortable. Sometimes I’ve got to do those things I don’t want to do. Sometimes I’ve got to do that. Like when I work out, I don’t want to work out. But it’s in the working out that I’ve got such a svelte body. Just kidding. But it’s in the working out that health comes from. And I don’t want to go to a meeting on a Tuesday night. Are you kidding me? But if I don’t do that, I’m not the same person I want to be. So every human being on the planet, if we’re in laziness, we’re not going to be of true potential. So that doesn’t mean we have to work eight hours a day on ourselves, but that little bit of working on ourselves, who better to work on than ourselves, right? What better path to take than really understanding ourselves and understanding how we think? We’re so busy taking other people’s inventory. Why don’t we start taking ours and see what happens? Wise man once said, insanity, we’ve all heard this, is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting different results. You know, I coach people. I sponsor people. I know this. Some people say they want help and won’t do anything about it. There’s nothing I can do for them. Some people want help and they’re willing to do that dirty word, work, and they change dramatically. So we get, not everybody wants it. If the pain’s big enough, you and I will lift that finger off that burner.
Dr. Mark Leeds [1:00:05] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s the hardest part about helping people with addiction is that there’s almost nothing you can do to help someone that’s not ready to be helped. You know, what they call the pre-contemplation stage. You know, the stage of where they don’t even think they have a problem or they don’t want help. You know you can try everything I mean you can lock someone up you can which is not always a good idea you know you can try to give them therapy all you want but yeah until someone gets to that point where they’re like you know maybe I do have a problem maybe I do need help maybe I should do something about this but you know and that’s why you know now the medical field they talk about harm reduction like let’s try to do some things to keep people safe you know and not that we want to give them drugs or anything because that’s not the right thing to do But at least, you know, maybe give them the people doing fentanyl, give them some clean supplies and a place where we can watch them. You know, these supervised consumption sites, you know, keep them from dying of an overdose or hepatitis C or a blood infection, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and having Narcan everywhere to reverse overdoses. But, yeah, because, you know, when someone isn’t ready at all, I mean, they’ll do anything and it’s not really their fault. It’s the addiction talking, you know. So we’ve even had patients sign up for our program where we thought they wanted help. And it turned out they were just using the program as an excuse to keep going, you know, to say, oh, tell their parents, like, yeah, I’m working with a doctor. He’s helping me. And it’s really just an excuse to put things off for another couple months.
Bart Nollenberger [1:01:33] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s insidiousness of that, isn’t it? It’s just that. And for me, what I look at is, look, I’ve been there. I’ve been, I had one addiction, I got through another one, I kept relapsing time and time again. So I’ve been there, I can understand that. But my, and I want to change everybody. I’m not everybody, I want to help anybody that is broken, right? But not everybody. I mean, that’s, that’s not going to happen. If I have a room of 10, probably one want to do whatever it takes to get to peace. But my prayer and my hope is that somebody says, you know what, I don’t want this anymore. I don’t like this life anymore. I don’t like who I am. And you and I have seen millions of people that have gone from brokenness to just massively successful in the world terms or in God’s terms because of the fact that they made a shift. And that’s my prayer. When I get in front of somebody, I pray that they’ve got something that says, man, I can be better than I am now. I don’t have to be this way.
Dr. Mark Leeds [1:02:41] Yeah. And just to finish up, one thing, you know, you’ve mentioned that you’re very good at sales. And I saw on your website the list of people that you follow that you’ve learned from over the years, you know, great motivational speakers and coaches. And one of them was Zig Ziglar, who I really like. I used to listen to some of his recordings. And he tells great stories. And, you know, he’s all about helping people to become better salespeople. And, you know, and I think he says at one point that selling isn’t just about going out and selling a product, you know, for your job. It’s about selling your family on things that are good for the family and selling yourself on things that are better for you. You know, convincing yourself that working out is important, even though you don’t want to do it or eating healthy is important. You know, so. So, yeah, I mean, maybe if you know that might be a good for people that want to help other people. Become a better salesperson of being able to sell recovery of saying, you know, I know you’re not ready for this, but let me tell you how great things are. Let me try to sell you on why you might want to consider doing this. Yeah.
Bart Nollenberger [1:03:49] You know, Zig Ziglar is my favorite quote. You can get anything you want. And if you think about that for anybody, no matter how broken you are, you can get anything you want if you help enough people get what they want. So it’s giving it away is where you get it. And, you know, I think everybody’s a salesperson. Sales is servitude. Sales is influence, but it’s influence, good salespeople influence with integrity. But a mother that’s telling her kid, trying to teach a baby on how to use the bathroom and not the diaper. That’s their salespeople. A father that’s having their kids come to dinner and turn their phones off. We’re all sales people we all influence in some capacity and I yeah I don’t like being called a salesperson sometimes that’s a dirty word but I’m a servant who likes to help people get what they want and that’s what I believe and that’s my that’s my mission and those the time in sales have given me skill sets to help people do exactly that
Dr. Mark Leeds [1:04:50] Yeah yeah yeah there’s nothing wrong with sales. I mean, you know, I mean, maybe, you know, of course there’s people that sell products that aren’t very good products and maybe they shouldn’t be, but I mean, yeah, if you’re selling, you know, selling recovery and living a drug and alcohol free life, I mean, that’s definitely a great product.
Bart Nollenberger [1:05:08] Yep. Yes. Yes. It really is. And I didn’t think I’d be doing this. I thought I’d be selling seminars or do it to begin on stages in front of 50,000 people, but that’s not what my mission was. This is what my mission is. And I’m just, I’m so excited about this book. Who knows, you know, I can sell two copies, but I believe that’s a game changer. At least it will be for somebody, right? Sometimes if we have a room of 900, one of them wants help. I’m looking for the one.
Dr. Mark Leeds [1:05:40] Yeah. Yeah. Just, just like Rick Warren’s book, Saved One Woman from a Killer, your book could be sitting on someone’s coffee table or by their bed and they may open it up to a random page and read something that saves their life. And they may read through the whole thing. And, you know, that your book could say if it saves one person’s life, it’s done its job and hopefully it saves a lot of lives.
Bart Nollenberger [1:06:02] Well said, doctor. Thank you for that. That gives me hope, right? That’s absolutely good.
Dr. Mark Leeds [1:06:06] Definitely. So yeah, Bart Nollenberger, thank you. Thank you again for joining me today.
Bart Nollenberger [1:06:12] You’re so welcome. If anybody wants to reach out, go to bartnollenberger.com […] I’d love to spend time with you, get to know who you are and see how I can help you on this journey. And it’s not a requisition for business. It’s a requisition to hear your heart. And I’d love to serve you any way I can.
